Iverson

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by buddahfan, Dec 9, 2006.

  1. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Help me out here guys. I clearly am in the minority here when it comes to AI.

    I really do not see what his value is other than taking a lot of shots.

    1. He has a low career shooting percentage
    2. He does not get many assists (career ave 6 a game)
    3. He gets even fewer rebounds (career ave 4 a game)
    4. He has never won a title
    5. I don't believe AI has ever won defensive player of the year or been on the NBA 1st or 2nd all-defense team
    6. He doesn't make the players around him better as evidenced by the 76s record over the years.
    7. He is controveral and hard to coach.

    I just don't get it. Yes he can get to the basket and score. Yes he can make spectacular shots. Yes he can drain an ocassional 3 (career 3 point shooting percentage .310, which is really low)

    Zeke could have rung up 30 points a game for 5 years if all he did was shoot. Lest you all forget some of the memorable quarters that he had when he decided to score big time.

    The Bad Boys wouldn't have won squat if he continued to shoot like he did when he first came to the Pistons.

    If you look back on the history of the NBA, Michael and the Bulls were the only team to win the NBA title consistantly over a span of years when that team had the league's scoring champ.

    I don't deny for one second that AI is exciting to watch sort of (but when you have watched as much Magic and Kobe as I have then watching AI is ho-hum).

    I don't deny he can score, given 27 shots a game.

    So help me out here guys. What is it about AI that makes everyone think he is so great?

    Thanks

    :hoops:
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    His heart.
  3. lapeapod

    lapeapod First Round Draft Pick

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    I think Iverson would be an intriguing piece to add to a championship caliber team that needs to get over the hump. He's one of the top 50 players of all-time that have played in the NBA and he's got that competitive fire that you just can't coach. He's all heart and pound for pound he's the toughest player right now in the NBA. He's certainly not a coaches dream but can you imagine how much better Chicago or Miami would be if they could snag AI? I would trade Chauncey, Nazr and one of our first run picks for AI and Dalembert (sp). Do I think the Pistons are going to pull a trigger on a deal for AI, nope! Mr. D. is a cheapskate at heart and Joe Dumars wants a certain type of player with that Pistons DNA coursing through their body and AI doesn't fit the mold. I think Chicago will get AI and they'll give up Ben Gordon and that hot rookie of theirs and a first round pick.
  4. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    His heart.

    Well I guess I missed that one. I can certainly understand why people would like that in someone. But I am not sure how you measure a person's heart, but then I am no heart surgeon.

    1. I don't think you guys are referring to his pulse rate.
    2. I don't think you guys are referring to his charity work in the community, given that he doesn't show up at team scheduled chartible events.
    3. It certainly can't be his attitude because that has never been sterling.
    4. It can't be his competitive fire, because he wouldn't take 27 shots a game if he truely wanted to win, given his career low shooting percentage.

    So please could someone define what they mean by heart regarding Mr. Inverson and how they measure it.

    Thanks

    :hoops:
  5. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    Maybe you should just watch him play. It's obvious. I get the feeling that many people haven't really updated their opinion of Iverson in four or 5 years. He's not the same player he used to be. But what's obvious is the will to win.

    The Pistons in the past two years have been missing 2 things: the will to win and a lights-out penetrator/playoff scorer. The 2 things the Pistons are missing the most are 2 things that Iverson is good at. And not just good at, but one of the best ever.
  6. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    He's a true warrior (Not the artest kind). He never wants to miss a game. He continuously plays through injuries when he has no right to, and sometimes no reason. He goes to the basket and gets pounded time after time for REAL. (unlike stage actor wade who gets help from the refs and league.)

    He's loyal. If anyone deserves to be frustrated about being equipped with average teammates its AI (Not KG). You wonder why he takes 27 shots a game? Would you pass to someone like Tyrone Hill when you know he can't score? Yet he still does because he knows the value of being a team. On stats alone you might think he's all about me and getting mine, but he understands it takes a team effort to win. He will rarely badmouth his teammates.

    He cares. Yes, he gets paid a lot of money but listen to any one of his post-game press conferences and you can tell how much winning means to him.

    He is fearless. He's only 6". 90% of the NBA is bigger and stronger than him. But his heart is bigger than 90%. You put his heart in to someone like Olowakandi and you have yourself one of the most dominant players of all time. How often have you seen him challenge the big guys at the rim? Countless. Its not a reckless abandon for ones health, its a conscious thought of attacking the rim, because they can't stop him without fouling. He's too good.

    He is a champion with a champions mentality. He doesn't believe anyone can beat him. He is going to win no matter what. He will do whatever it takes to win. The 'he doesn't have a championship' argument doesn't work for me. There are 30 teams in the NBA, I don't see how anyone who fails to be lucky enough to be on a championship team a failure.
    Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Mark Price, Patrick Ewing... Some of the best players over the last 20 years. Not one of them is a failure.

    You can't judge this guy on numbers alone, it doesn't show you the entire picture. I always refer back to the 2001 playoffs/finals. That team had no right whatsoever to be in the finals. None. Those players were totally average, but they were a team. They had a great coach. And they had a great leader in AI. You could just see the rest of his teammates feed off his passion and belief. He believed, and in turn so did they. One of the greatest achievements of all time without winning the ring IMO.
  7. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    I can't help you out cause I am in agreement with you. Iverson won't work as a Piston. You can't take a selfish guy, put him on an unselfish team, and expect to improve. We would be better off trying to get a backup point guard and getting a legitimate center so we don't have to depend on the three every night. Does Allen have heart? Yes but the problem is his heart is totally in love with himself and how many shots he gets per night. Getting Iverson would do more harm than good in my opinion.
  8. Winless Wonders

    Winless Wonders Starter Forum Donor

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    I don't know what player you have been watching? The last 5 or 6 years Iverson has not been that selfish player you are speaking of. Most nights Iverson defers his shot until late in games when he is forced to take over. Philly does not have one single person that can finish or get there shot off unless they are open. How can you be selfish if you score 37 points and have 12 assists??

    Iverson puts up a lot of shots but also goes to the line a lot. Most nights he goes to the free throw line 6 or 7 times which adds up to like 10 or 12 more points. When the game is on the line and the score is close or the team is down 2 you can depend on AI to drive to the basket and take that elbow to the chest and drop that tear drop shot in for a and 1. I rather put my faith in AI driving to the basket when the game is one the line knowing he is going to get smashed than a guy chucking up an off balanced 3 pointer 5 steps behind the 3 point line.

    As for the heart factor. Iverson is a true warrior. He plays through pain and injury. He will drive to the basket among the trees and he does not back down from a challenge.
  9. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    The fact that they got to the finals was amazing. Even though the Lakers beat them in 5, the first game was a basketball performance for the ages. All the talk before that series was Shaq Shaq Kobe Kobe Kobe Kobe. Iverson won the first game. HE made amazing shots, drew fouls on Shaq by relentlessly driving the lane, stole the ball from Kobe a few times and played amazing defense.

    After that first game, the Lakers used Kobe (one of the very best defenders in the game) and two other players to defend Allen everytime he touched the ball. He has amazing heart.

    Remember when you look at Iverson's career assist numbers, that he played the majority of his career at shooting guard, and compare that average with other shooting guards. Now his numbers are in the top of the league.

    His fg% is low because he gets fouled constantly. Iverson draws alot of fouls. Not only does this give you points, it forces the other players to play a less agressive game, giving your team an advatage.

    As for his character, Iverson is not the same guy he was when he was younger. I think the way he is treated is unfair. If you have watched interviews with his coaches over the last couple of years, they will tell you he is a team player. Last night ESPN was running the trade story along with the famous "practice? We talking about practice?" clip. That was after a game over 4 years ago. Has anyone in here said anything they would like to forget over the last 4 years?


    I would trade Chauncey for Iverson. I"m not the GM cap/contract guy, so I don't know if this is realistic, but we will have to pay Chauncey the same amount as Iverson over the next several years, and Iverson won't take games off, or get tired.
  10. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    I see Iverson in kind of the same light I saw Sheed at Portland...expected to be the 'go to' guy by his teammates, night-after-night. After Sheed came here he seemed to loosen up a lot...he looks like he's having fun most games because he has good teammates that all rely on each other. I think Iverson is looking for a good supporting cast to take some of the pressure off every bit as much he wants to have a ring. AI sometimes overwhelms possessions because he feels he has to. More than anything, I think AI wants to have some fun playing the game again...he feels burnt out in Philly right now.

    It will never happen, but I can't even imagine how much fun it would be at the Palace if AI came here. Sheed, Rip & AI would be funnier than hell to watch jokingly spar when the clock is off...and even more fun to watch playing ball together. I think AI would fit right in here...and slumping ticket sales would get a jump start.

    I believe CB is FAR more of a selfish baller than AI.
  11. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    You don't know what player I have been watching? Well I will tell you then. I'm watching a guy that takes more than twice as many shots this year than the player with the second most shots on his team. Allen is a ball hog. We already have a couple of players that love to shoot that restrain themselves because they are unselfish. They are content because everybody gets their allotment. AI comes walking in with his "I must get twice as many shots plus" mentality and very soon, our team is a bunch of individuals just like the 76'ers and the olympic teams Iverson was on. It's all about team. Not individuals in my opinion.
  12. max

    max All-Star

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    There is nothing critically wrong with either player ( CB/AI ). Any team in the league would love to have them.

    CB does coast through periods of games. I think a lot of those slow starts and on/off switch mentality would not be here with AI. AI would also break down defenses and get to the line a lot. Not that CB does not do that but AI would be an upgrade because he does it every game.

    AI does have an injury history and you never know how much longer he will go. That would be my biggest fear with AI. If we lost him in the post-season due to injury its going to be over.
  13. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    IMO...as the team stands now...for us to win a title would be a fluke. CB will make a free-agency stat push after the Allstar game which will lead to team losses. Even if we could squeak out an ECF championship (doubtful in my mind), we don't have the bench to stand up to Dallas, SA, or Utah for seven games.

    Iverson would be less susceptable to injury here, due to having the pressure to 'do-it-all' relieved. I think he feels the need to move on right now in order to extend his career. Another year or two with Philly might force him to retire early due to injury.
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    Sorry, I had edited that 'Can we win a title out" line.

    Now thats its there. I like our team but we are just another contender unless Dumars does something. If he can do anything. Yes AI would have a lot more help here so he would not be putting himself at risk as much or playing as many mins.



    In the article linked here from another thread.

    Mavs, C's eye A.I. - NBA - Yahoo! Sports
    I don't think Dumars can put together a package to fit that unless its a multi-team deal where some team is dying to get Mohamed.

    Dumars is probably in the other half not talking trade
  15. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    yes, i think it would be difficult for detroit to swing something reasonable. we'd have to give up too many players. something like CB, dice, DD and flip for AI and a throw-in.

    else, you could do something else and set off a big chain of events.
    you trade Rip with Dice and DD. Play CB and AI in the same backcourt for the rest of the season. Let CB walk in the off-season and play blalock the next season. the season after that both sheed and AI's contracts will be up and you can either re-sign them on the cheap for being aging vets, or use them to swing big trades and start again with tay as the nucleus and be back in the davison happy place (under the cap).

    now thats a long way into the future, but just goes to show how a move now could set off events years from now.
  16. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    If Chauncey wanted to get stats for money he would of started a long time ago, buddy.
  17. max

    max All-Star

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    Webz. Yes, a deal like this around the league is going to really change at least 2 teams futures.

    Going to be interesting when some team offers CB 60mil over 5 years. Dumars said he will do whatever it takes.

    Looking at the Sixers situation, you have to appreciate being a Pistons fan. They are trying to get to the rebuilding point which is pretty much sucking for 2-3 years and they can't even really get there with Webbers contract weighting them down.

    So they have to hope that the guys they get for AI will really blossom and the picks will be good. We can't offer either. At least not as well as some other clubs.
  18. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Iverson = selfish

    Biggest misconception in the league.

    Allen is asked to score, so he does. Statistically his assists have been up since he moved to point guard. Early in his career Eric Snow distributed the ball. Larry Brown never accused him of being selfish. Larry would not bite his tounge to such a thing. If Michael Jordan is a selfish player...so be it. The disparity of Mike's shots versus his teammates was just as menacing.

    Iverson's biggest problem is he isn't clean cut like a Grant Hill. Every player in the league respects him. They call him a class act that is a great teammate.

    Anyone truely interested in knowing the truth about Allen Iverson would find it and not look at shot totals to make a conclusion. The testimonies are in abundance. This is not the same player that entered the league as a rookie.
  19. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    some good points all around, but i still wouldn't trade CB for AI
  20. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Iverson is the best combo gaurd in the league right now. Iverson was selfish. The guy has grown up, and he can do anything on the court now. Every one who thinks AI is no good is a dumb***. Sorry for swaring, but that's the only way to put it. Stupid isn't a strong enough word.

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