Joe's mistakes

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TWOTIMESRALPHI, Jun 16, 2007.

  1. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I've waited a long time to say this. I started doubting his GM capabilities ever since he traded Darko and Arroyo away. Although he did a magnificient job of adding talent that won the ship in '04, he failed ever since.
    Since then, he has a pretty small list of good moves and a pretty long one of bad moves. After every bad move, I thought that he must have some plan that would make that move look at least explainable. But he obviously hasn't. Sometimes, he simply makes bad moves for no appearant reason.
    I really lost my faith in him- he managed to bring together a very nice team but since then, the squad god worse on a consistent basis.
    Here's my list.

    Good moves after the ship:
    Adding Mc Dyess of free agency
    Mc Dyess was a risk, but it paid off. He surely was good enough to replace Okur. Plus, Mc Dyess was extremely hungry and was able to manage 3 injury- free seasons.

    Getting Webber
    With Webber, the team at least had a small chance for the championship. I doubt that the Pistons would even have gone past the Bulls without him.

    Trading for Arroyo
    Arroyo was a very good guard when JoeD traded for him. Sure, he was expected to have a similar impact like Sheed had back then, but Arroyo was a pretty decent backup for CB- able to provide a spark off the bench, especially offensively. Something we would have needed in the last 2 seasons.

    Adding Evans
    Sure, that wasn't a major move. But Evans is a decent player and our bench was and is very thin at every position.

    Drafting AJ and JMax
    We all love these 2 and hopefully, they'll be part of the rotation next season. If not, one must wonder why JoeD doesn't trade every single draft pick for mediocre players in their 30's?

    Now the bad ones:
    1.) Trading Darko and Arroyo away for Orlando's pick and Kelvin who?
    Joe waited for the worst time to make that trade. Instead of pulling a trade before the season started (Atlanta offered Al Harrington for Darko alone!!!), or waiting til free agency, he made the trade at the end of the trading deadline and got nothing in return- we ended the season with LH and Tony Delk as backup PG's :nerd2:
    Right now, our biggest needs are at the C and at the backup PG position. Yes, at Darko's (who will be 22 in a couple of days) and Arroyo's positions. Next season, we'll either have Webber walking with a crook or Stonehands Nazr at the C position. Or an unproven rookie.
    So you trade one promising young C and a proven backup PG away for one pick that maybe turns out to be a solid NBA player. You give 2 and -maybe- take one. Nice move.

    2.) Letting Ben go
    The official version was that Darko and Arroyo were packaged to free capspace to resign Ben. Now I see Ben playing for the Bulls. If Joe would have waited to see how much money Ben wanted, he could have kept both Darko and Arroyo. Darko is at least equally good as freakin' Nazr, plus he's younger. No one can tell me the opposite. I
    f JoeD would have shown some patience, he could have had the choice between resigning Ben with a too fat contract or finally trusting his #2 pick. But he chose to get rid of both and go for Nazr Mohammed.

    3.) Signing Nazr Mohammed to a fat contract
    After Ben left, JoeD got pretty scared and signed Nazr as "replacement". I really doubt he couldn't have signed him to a shorter contract since no one can tell me the market for Nazr was that big.
    No one wants slow bigs these days.

    4.) Trading Delfino away for nothing in return
    Delfino showed that he's a legit NBA player. He was misused in Detroit but he has a decent shot, solid D and can penetrate. He's definetely more worth than 2 2nd rounders, c'mon. Anyway, why the hell was he traded??? He was the 7th man of the bench and he's 24 years old.

    5.) Trading away Evans for nothing
    I know some of you guys are into Samb. But this far, this guy is a big question mark. Evans is a decent backup SG who provides hustle- he's definetely more worth than a #56 pick. So, instead of working something out to get a backup PG, JoeD decided to give away birthday presents.

    6.) Not getting a backup PG
    LH really hurt the team this year. JoeD had the trade material (DD, Nazr, FlipM, Delfino) to get a player who's better than LH. He made nothing although every one saw the big hole behind CB. Maybe he liked how Nazr was cheering off the bench?
  2. max

    max All-Star

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    I agree that he needs to step it up.

    He basically traded his #2 pick for a #15. Not too get too much into Darko but that strategy of sitting someone for 3 years never worked with 1st rounders. Young guys want to play like everyone else.

    Add into failures the signing of Flip Saunders. He has been a dissapointment. Also the handling of Larry Brown. Larry probably would not have stayed no matter what but the whole thing could have been done better.

    He is living off his accomplishments from 02-04, then again the team has not needed very many tweeks except for that 3rd-guard which continues to elude him.

    This is going to be another big summer for Dumars. Perhaps the most important one of his career. A chance to step to the plate and get this franchise going again or to bumble it into the dark ages.
  3. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    Max, I think you are on the mark on all of your points. But when you say that Larry probably would not have stayed, do you mean that he would have quit after the 2005 season? If so, I don't believe that. The Pistons bought out the remaining three years of his contract for a fairly hefty $7 million, if I recall correctly, which suggests that Larry had convinced Bill D. in those negotiations that he wanted to stay on. The other consideration is that there are tampering rules that, if enforced, would prevent another team from inducing Larry to leave the Pistons and sign with them. I recall back in 1995 or so that Miami essentially settled a tampering claim regarding the hiring of Pat Riley by giving the Knicks a first round draft pick and a million dollars. So even if Larry had wanted out in 2005 or later in order to sign with another team, I think the Pistons would have had some decent leverage to make him fulfill his contract.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    loyalist, you hit the nail on the head with the LB deal.

    If he was talking to other teams without permission, the Pistons could have destroyed them on tampering charges. If they allowed him to talk to other teams, there really is no case against him.

    It was a big dark mess, and one I am sure everyone at the Palace has been instructed to take to their graves. But I for one would pay $100 to know the truth. Just to satisfy my curiosity.
  5. Murph

    Murph First Round Draft Pick

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    TWOTIMESRALPHI...good post.

    You know, everyone points to our four starters making the All-Star team last year as the moment that this team peaked and started to go down hill. But IMO, it was the Darko/Arroyo giveaway that occured over the All-Star break that started this team downhill. With that trade, we went from a young, up and coming team to an aging over-the-hill team over-night, and it started to show up in our win/loss record almost immediately. Just my opinion...
  6. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i would like to add that joe hasn't made any sign and trades for our big free agents that left. i know the player has to agree but it seems like joe could have got one of them to agree. mike james, okur and ben.

    i would also like to add resigning lindsey hunter was a mistake. his jumper is broke on a regular basis, he defense is overrated, he uses diet pills, he doesn't create for others and he can't finish at the rim. hey maybe we should have traded lindsey for a second rounder and just played fino at the point.
  7. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    What's amazing to me is that our lazy and supine press here in Detroit has never gotten to the bottom of Bill D.'s decision regarding Larry, including when it was made, why it was made, Joe's role (if any) in the decision, and so forth. Likewise, as far as I know, even to this day the press here has never really reported on the details of Bill D.'s strange decision years ago to renege on the reported offer to make Zeke the team's general manager. If either of these things had happened in New York or Chicago, the press would have been very aggressive in getting to the bottom of the story, and eventually would have.
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    We couldn't pay Memo or James more, so there was no point in a sign & trade. The carrot for the player is that the team he is leaving can pay him the most, so not only does he get to move, but he gets paid like he stayed put.

    Joe didn't do a S&T with Chicago, but that may have been a good move. They might have saddled us with a bunch of lousy crap.
  9. max

    max All-Star

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    loyalist. Rosoce hit the bottom line it that we just don't know.

    Was LB taking to other teams during the season? No I do not believe so. But if you consider his actions he did not appear as a guy wanting to stay. He only emphasised his desire to stay after the season when the buyout talk started.

    The guy did help get us the only title out of all this so he should have been given more respect. The whole thing should have been handled better.
  10. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    1.) It is too early on the Darko move. We need to see what happens with this year's #15 pick.

    2.) Not resigning Ben was one of the best non-moves that Joe D. has ever made. Ben started to go down hill last year. This year he was only average at best. Yes better than Nazir (more about that in a moment) but even if we had beaten Cleveland with Big Ben no way we would have beaten the Spurs. Watch next year and see how productive Big Ben is and that will only be the second year into a four year megabuck contract. The Bulls ate it on this one. If they draft Hawes it won't be because they expect that Big Ben will take them to the next level which he won't. One more year and Big Ben will be a Big Burden for the Bulls with his Big Bucks contract.

    3.) Nazir was not signed to a "fat contract" is was only the MLE. The problem with the contract is that it was too long. If it had been only one year or two at the most the deal would have been a reasonable risk deal, but it was too long not too much money per year. Of course it should not have been done at all, so to that extent I agree with you on this point; it was bad move on Joe D.'s part to sign Nazir to any contract.

    4.) Trading Delfino for two second round picks. Too early to comment on that. Delfino was himself a late 1st round pick; i.e., #25. We need to wait several years to see how these picks we got in return for Delfino turn out and how Delfino turns out. Any comments regarding this trade and whether it was a good trade or bad trade for us, at this point are only speculation and not based on fact.

    5.) Evans stinks. We never should have signed him to begin with. He is a mediocre bench player whose only claim to fame is that he like Flip have some hops.

    6.) Not getting a backup PG. You got to be kidding. How may teams in the NBA have a solid backup point guard? You can count them on one hand excluding the thumb and that may be overstating it. Do have any idea how hard it is to find a good point guard and sign him, yet alone two of them? The point guard position is the hardest position to fill on a basketball team, bar none.

    Having said all of that, I will agree that Joe D. has made some bad moves so did Fred Astaire. Does that mean he wasn't a great dancer. No way. Joe D. is top banana and has gotten the Pistons to among the NBA elite and kept them there over the last five years.

    Yes Cleveland and the media and the Stern beat the Pistons this year but those were mighty long odds for us to deal with. Go check out the television ratings on this years NBA Finals. They were horrible. Could you imagine what they would have been had the Pistons faced the Spurs. They would have been non-existent off the chart.

    What Joe D. needs to do is make sure that AJ gets developed and marketed properly. The Pistons need a superstar loved by the media and the young fans.

    :hoops:
  11. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    Yes, but my point (and I think Roscoe's too) was that, in light of the tampering rules and his contractual obligations, Larry does not really have the right to quit and sign with another team, even if that is what he wants to do. I suppose he could just quit, give up any additional pay from the Pistons, be unemployed for a season or so before trying to land another job, and assume (probably correctly) that the Pistons would not sue him for breach of contract. But under the tampering rules he can't quit and immediately sign with another team (and can't even talk to other teams while he is under contract), unless the Pistons agree to waive those rules and let him do so.
  12. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    It is hard to tell where Joe D's mistakes differ from Flipper's. I kind of feel like it doesn't matter who was brought in or who is picked in the draft. The system doesn't bend. If you can hit J's then you can play. If you can't then the 5 who can will play and play and play. Playing someone 13 minutes a night is not an accomplishment.

    Big Ben would have made a difference in the playoffs. His absence was felt. The system had no room for him though aside from 3-6 minutes every 6-10 games. It is a "proven fact" remember, that you can't beat Shaq without scoring.
  13. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    I completely agree. Hiring Saunders may be THE mistake of Joe's GM career.

    And I also feel that we would have taken the Spurs to 6 games if we had Ben Wallace this year.
  14. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    The ironic thing about Flip's statements (after Ben left) that the team would be better off without Ben because of his offensive liabilities is that one would think that a coach who is supposed to be so creative offensively would have found a way to bring Ben into the offense at least as much as Larry did.
  15. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    LOUD APPLAUSE!!! FAR bigger mistake than Darko.

    Not with Flip here.
  16. McSheed

    McSheed Second Round Draft Pick

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    Joe D. has been pretty good, but his mistakes in the last 1-3 season have been devastating. And know I am through.


    THREE BIGGEST MISTAKES:

    1:Trading Darko, Arroyo,

    This trade, at first, was actully liked by me, but know i see how horrible it was. I thought it was to help pay for Big Ben's contract, which obviously didn't happen. Then, they got Nazr, who was a good, defensive minded player, but it turned out he just sucked at both offensivly and defensivly. I would rather have Darko, because 1.Younger and 2.Potential. Darko is turning 22 and plus, he has much more capabilites, that if blossoms, he can turn into a PF/C shooter. Arroyo proved he could give spark off the bench, and trading him, once again gave us absolutley nothing. I also thought shipping out Arroyo gave more playing time for Delfino..which turned out to be well, to not swear i will just say, crap. This was a bonehead move.

    2:Letting Ben leave.
    Well, this lead to Nazr having a fat contract, and well he just sucks. Ben, if he stayed, would have kept us on the way to the championship. and as Ralphi said, if we, at first asked his asking price, we could have potentially kept Arroyo and Darko which wouldnt have lead to all medicore Centers, who will start to have to use a cane.

    3:Letting go LB-getting FS-Or as i like to call him- F****** S*** :)
    I am just so angry that we let LB go, and got Flip..like words cant describe
  17. max

    max All-Star

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    Your guess is as good as mine as far as what happened.
  18. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    You forget how balanced their ofense used to be under LB. I saw on one of these threads that someone mentioned starting every game off with a Big Ben miss on O. They never played 4 on 5 under LB though. He was so tough on the guards that he maximized their potential. They are trying to prove they're dream teamers now and the balance is lost.

    You all are right about Flip being his biggest mistake. I tried not to pile on him after losing to Miami, but after a while it became evident. Under LB the quotes were, 'We've won plenty of games with Sheed scoring 6 points, but we've never won without his defense.' Now? I really feel it is hopeless as long as Flip is here.
  19. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    it's not too early. the # 15 pick will not be as good as darko and arroyo combined. the damage from the darko and arroyo trade has already been done in my opinion. we lost year before last because cb got tired and our center couldn't hit 50% free throws. arroyo and darko would solve that problem. we lost this year because cb was turning it over and cwebb had the stone feet at center. arroyo and darko would have solved that.

    which is why we should have tried harder to keep mike james, acker, delfino or arroyo. i don't think the problem is having a backup pg it's the coach putting them on thee floor.
  20. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Just like the N.Y. Press was always aggressive at deriding Sheffield in any way they could and every other star athlete who ever played there except for maybe Jackie Robinson.

    :hoops:

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