Joe's mistakes

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TWOTIMESRALPHI, Jun 16, 2007.

  1. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Some notable players taken in the draft since 2001 at the #15 pick or higher

    1. Tony Parker 2001 #28
    2. Gilbert Arenas 2001 #31
    3. Earl Watson 2001 #40
    4. Memet Okur 2001 #38
    5. Zack Randolph 2001 #19
    6. Gerald Wallace 2001 #25
    7. Carlos Boozer 2002 #35
    8. Taysun Prince 2002 #23
    9. Leandrinho Barbosa 2003 #28
    10. Boris Diaw 2003 #21
    11. Josh Howard 2003 #29
    12. Al Jefferson 2004 #15
    13. Ryan Gomes 2005 #50
    14. David Lee 2005 #30
    15. Amir Johnson 2005 #56
    16. Daniel Gibson 2006 #42

    There are others, but that is probably the cream of the cop since the 2001 draft of players taken #15 or higher, unless I missed one or two.

    All of those so far, with the exception of AJ who hasn't played much yet, have far outplayed Darko and Carlos.

    :hoops:
     
  2. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Just go a little further back and you can put a guy like Michael Redd in that list. The Pistons will have to get a little lucky if they want to join that list of players this year.
     
  3. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    I stopped at 1986. I am sure there are a bunch more from 87 - 90 (seem my prior post for players from 91 - 96) that are better than Darko and Carlos have performed in their careers so far.

    1958 - Wayne Embry #23
    1981 - Larry Nance #20
    1981 - Danny Ainge #31
    1983 - John Paxon #19
    1984 - John Stockton #16
    1985 - Joe Dumars #18
    1985 - AC Green #23
    1985 - Terry Porter #24
    1986 - Mark Price #26
    1986 - Dennis Rodman #29
    1986 - Ron Kellogg #42

    We have been lucky before LOL

    :hoops:
     
  4. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I'd let you pay $100 so I could know the truth too.:MusicBigGrin:
     
  5. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    You can't handle the truth!!!!
    :roll::rofl:
     
  6. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i wonder how many of them did that with thier original team???
    i wonder which ones on that list took more than 3 years to blossom???
    i wonder which ones were developed on lottery teams???

    drafting a guy isn't the problem. i know joe can pick some gems. its just what the pistons do with the picks after we get them. detroit isn't exactly a haven for player development. i hope things change this year like i hope every year. i wonder which one of those guys on the list would stick with the pistons after being held back for his first few years in the league just because he was a young player and we are contenders.
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The only havens for player development are lotto teams.
     
  8. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    I dunno about that Roscoe.

    Dallas was making noise while developing Howard and Harris.

    San Antonio seemed to integrate Ginobili and Parker just fine.

    Phoenix has worked Barbosa into their rotation pretty nicely, and brought out some surprising skills in Diaw that the lottery team he was on didn't see in him.

    It seems to me that development is eased by the presence of a "Star" caliber player to ease the transitions on the floor?

    One more shot across the bow of Joe's "team of no superstars" philosophy.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I appreciate that you have 3 examples with two players each.

    But is that the exception or the norm?

    I'd rather run with the fact that Joe drafts duds than we don't have opportunities here. Not saying that is fact, but certainly more palatable.
     
  10. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I'd say it is the exception. But at the same time no player is going to develop without playing time.
     
  11. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    i think it's better to strive to be an exception than the norm. the pistons don't have a superstar so we have to approach the game differently. the pistons org doesn't have a generous owner when it comes to playing players so we have to do things differently. it makes sense to develop your youth because they are cheap.

    so what happens to that theory of drafting duds when they become studs on other teams??
     
  12. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    What duds did we draft that became STUDS on other teams? And before you throw wishful thinking-azz Darko's name out there, the fact is; the only STUD in Orlando is D-Howard.

    All this moaning and groaning about the Pistons not "developing" players is the cry of agony of some free pass waving fans because their favorite player became a bust.

    Maybe you should ask yourself why did Darko not get "developed" and Amir did. With considerably less playing time I might add. Did the thought ever cross your mind that maybe, just maybe "development" has a little something to do with the player himself?
     
  13. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    You're jumping the gun to say that Amir is developed. He is anything but. He is still very raw, and has yet to even see legit NBA competition. Let's wait a few real games before we crown him as a legit player. I've got high hopes for him, but let's be real here. He hasn't done a thing.

    BTW, if Flip has his way, Amir will be DNP-CDing his way to another team, and Amir will look like another bust on Joe's list.
     
  14. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Absolutely not. As we all know, players have absolutely no influence on their careers. At the professional level, the key to sucess lies in things like understanding coaches and benevolent General Managers.

    You work your ass off in high school so you can get to a decent college, play your heart out in college so you can make the pros, then... well, then it's out of your hands.
     
  15. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    You do have a good point in that Flip could Darko, AJ. The thing is is that they won't win next year with the talent they have now if Flip does.

    Right now Cleveland and Chicago are better than them. Toronto and Washington are not too far behind. Flip will be forced to play AJ next year or else Flip will be out the door.

    Talent is talent. While AJ ain't no LeBron, AJ has tremendous ability and has shown that he can dominate at all levels of competition that he has played in.

    Everyone who had seen LeBron play in high school knew what type of player he was going to be in the NBA. Didn't Nike sign him to a hundred million contract or some ridiculous amount even before LeBron had played his first game in the NBA?

    When you have an exceptional talent you have an exceptional talent. I have seen AJ play and for my money he is an exceptional talent and will show that dominance in the NBA once he gets the minutes, with the Pistons or not. AJ is not Darko. Darko couldn't carry is athletic gear!!! and I like Darko's game and potential.

    :hoops:
     
  16. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Unless Amir pans out, we don't have a "stud" on this team.

    That doesn't mean that none of these guys Joe has dealt for pennies couldn't have contributed when placed around a true superstar.
     
  17. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    IMO, the exception, but the question I pose is whether the lack of what is percieved as development of guys in Pistons unis is due to:

    1) The fact that Detroit was a title contender.

    2) Detroit was a contender without a superstar, which exposed any new players as the weakest link in the chain and did nothing more than accentuate their respective flaws.

    3) The Coach(es) is/are incompetent.

    4) Joe is an awful judge of talent when it comes to drafting.




    IMO, the distant fourth here is #1, with Boris Diaw being better as a Sun than a Hawk laying the foundation of my contention.
    Carlos Delfino can disprove #4 in a years time. This would leave #2 or #3, and considering that we are stuck with the same coaching staff next year, I would hope it is #2, and something is done about it soon.

    But as far as any definitive answers.... I'm stuck.
    Considering how important that #15 is looking...coupled with how much of the future rests with how good Amir is,I hope not.
     
  18. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    I like Amir, and I've really grown on JMax; but in what since can you consider them "developed?"

    Reality is Darko was developed when he left, we just didn't use him. Same with Delfino. Both players will/have arrived on their new teams ready to play, ready to go.

    If you don't believe me, replay some of the Pistons/Orlando games, when the announcers comment on how Dwight needs to develop inside moves like Darko.

    We drop players not because they aren't any good, but because they don't have "Pistons DNA," and considering it looks like Flip Jr. does, and Delfino doesn't, I'm starting to wonder if that is a good thing.

    Take this to the bank:
    No player Joe could have drafted in 2003 would be in Detroit in 2007. Our system does not cope with players that want to play today. JMax is an over acheiver, so he had no problems waiting. Amir is a kid, just happy to be paid.

    Players like Carmello, Bosh, DWade, and Josh Howard would not have tolerated the LBs and Flip's just like Delfino and Darko didn't. And next year, this will be proven when Darko and Delfino are starting for teams that have better records than us.

    Hopefully Joe has learned, and he will force Flip to play JMax and Amir. But here's my question to the "win now club." If JMax and Amir are only playing 10-15 mpg, is that there fault? Or will you finally accept that maybe it's our systems fault? Or will you call them busts too?
     
  19. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    Orlando and Toronto will be improved ballclubs, but niether will have a better record than Detroit.

    I don`t see either team surpassing the Pistons, not next year anyway.
     
  20. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    I think that the system has something to do with it. Carlisle took a chance with Prince in the playoffs and it panned out.

    Brown did not like taking chances. He did like the unknown or what he was not comfortable with. Brown was never comfortable with players who did not go through the U.S. basketball system but instead a foreign system. Like I have posted many times before, in all the years that Brown coached pro ball there was never a foreign trained basketball player that he ever started. Rick Smits who was born in the Nethelands, still went to Marist college, so he in effect was a U.S. trained player. Kukoc and Okur were the only two foreign trained players that Brown ever played more than token minutes in all his years of coaching.

    Brown also did not like to play rookies or even second year players in other than meaningless situations.

    When Flip inherited the team, he got a team of 5 guys that had been together as a unit for two years (Dyess only one year) and had had success during that period almost winning two NBA titles. So Flip wasn't going to rock the boat in his first year. This year there were still five of the six here and now they were in their 4th year (Dyess only his 3rd) of having played together. Flip was also trying to get control of the team this year after having battled Big Ben for it last year. So it was unlikely that Flip, who was probably feeling a little unsure of himself as far as leader of the pack if not a little insecure in his position as head coach was going to rock the boat this last year.

    Well now Flip has been here two years and hasn't rocked the boat. Five of the Six are still here and and have all gotten 4 years older (starting next year) from the year that we won the title. They have also shown that they can't get it done anymore! If Flip is not smart enough to see that changes must be made based upon Joe D.'s moves this summer, then Flip will gone before the 2008-2009 season.

    As Bob Dylan sang "The Times Are A Changing", or at least they had better be if we expect to move back to the top of the heap within the next several years..

    :hoops:
     

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