Kool Aid Shortage

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, Nov 20, 2005.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,895
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Well, tonight the Kool Aid ran out and the Ps had their first loss and arguably a premier team that was healthy.

    Some persisting weaknesses have been bothering me, but it was inappropriate to bring them up when we were winning.

    * McDyess cannot seem to find his rhythm

    * although points are easy to come by on the break, our half court game consists almost exclusively of Rip moving for a J or CB spotting up.

    * the bench is terrible. Darko still does not seem to know where he is going, Arroyo and Delfino cannot defend penetration, the bench as a whole seems to be unable to generate any defensive pressure.

    * slow starts against teams, relying too heavily on late game heroics

    * Sheed still has not established a game that is any better than last year. Don't get me started, but he still looks a little flabby and flat-footed out there.

    It's still early but man, you had to know that this high scoring, high flying ball wouldn't last and at some point the Pistons would have to come back down to earth and play Detroit basketball. Has our identity been compromised? Where are the lockdown first quarters like we had in 2004 during the sub 70 streak?

    Most surprising has been an inability for the Pistons to control the paint. Atlanta has been putting up a bigger fight lately than the Pistons mustered tonight against a very good Dallas squad. That game against the Spurs in Dec. just got circled a second time on my calendar for good measure.
  2. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    11,648
    Likes Received:
    295
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    All valid points, and I agree with all of them, my friend. But I'm not worried at all. I think the team is still better this year under Flip's system.

    They will be fine! Do the Alfred E.Newman ("What, me worry?") I'd rather see a 40 point loss to Dallas after a victory in Houston than a one point loss to both. They ain't perfect. Chill and enjoy. If they lose two more in a row I'll hop on the worry wagon with ya and keep ya company. :cool:
  3. detteam

    detteam All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,260
    Likes Received:
    239
    Location:
    Troy
    Dice is in a funk...can't hit his shots on one end and picking up cheap fouls on the other. I hope he works out the kinks over the season's course.

    I haven't seen enough post-ups or drives to the rim from Tayshaun. How many plays do they run for him? When I think of the possibilities of Tayshaun getting the play with Ben & Sheed watching his back, I almost salivate.

    Not much post-up from Sheed either. Tho his 3's are deadly, he seems to be out THERE more than in tight. Without him shooting in close, the beauty of Ben's boards and thunderous put-backs goes away.

    Arroyo's still dribbling his butt off.

    Maybe I'm just too critical.


    On the plus side:

    I like MoE's energy. I like Delfino's drives to the rim AND his outside shooting. I like that Darko is looking more comfortable out there and looks like he's having fun...his stare-down with Mutombo and subsequent grin on Friday was priceless.


    Sad to say: WDIV is now replaying last nights game
  4. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    11,969
    Likes Received:
    1,226
    Location:
    Rancho Cucamonga, CA
    What me worry....uh yeah

    Micro all valid points that we should be concerned with. :confused: As easy as it appeared that we got those 8 wins, we could be 6-3 with out some great 4th qtr heroics by the starters. The 10-12 bench points per game have been masked only because the 'stones were undefeated. We need 25 consistent points by them per game and some decent defense. Those guys couldn't stop the Dallas bench at all (although they had Jason Terry out there trying to pad his stats). :doh:
  5. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    our bench

    hasn't fully been given it's chance yet. we have been winning games so it has been more important to win than get the bench in tune. our starters have been playing great so the bench minutes have been very low. i think people are too hard on the bench. delfino and arroyo stop dribble penetration just as good as rip and chauncey do. darko is still a shot blocker and still is hanging in there against the best bigs in the league, shaq, mourning, dikembe. his offensive game is needing a little work but i think that's more the coach needs to run some plays for him. evans is hitting the 3 point shot very well and rebounding well too. if anything our bench needs more minutes and more minutes as a unit. to develop that chemistry and define who is the leader among the second unit.

    mcdyess is the one bench player i'm worried about. he seems to be getting his minutes based on being a proven player. the bigs behind him are outplaying him right now but he still gets the major chunk of the minutes. i know what mcdyess can do and want him to get going but if another guy has it going that game let him have the minutes. the pistons are an unselfish bunch except maybe jmax they don't mind if the other players have good games as long as we win.
  6. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    Windsor, Ontario
    I've been worried about our bench for the past 2 seasons. Hunter is looking more and more valuable with every passing game.

    How nice would a Michael Finley off the bench be looking right now? SA's and Miami's benches got deeper and tougher, ours got younger and less experienced.

    Barring a Joe D. trade, I'm more worried about our bench this year than last.
  7. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    8-1 start i think we miss lindsey sooo much. putting up over 100 pts yes we are sorely missing lindsey. lindsey makes us tougher defensively but then that is going to suck the life out of us offensively. the offensive explosion is what is making this team much better than last years team.

    our bench is looking kinda bad right now because our go to guy mcdyess can't hit the side of the barn right now. that's messing up the offense for the rest of the guys on the second unit. also arroyo is the main ball handler with no help out there so it seems like he over dribbles our second unit needs delfino.

    i think the only difference between our bench and other teams is that other teams play thier bench. flip needs to start putting the bench on the floor so they can contribute. we are also a healthy team so none of our bench players never really get extended minutes because of injury. other teams have gave thier bench players lots of development minutes because of injury and suspensions in the case of indiana. don't sleep on our bench they are just getting started.
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,895
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    By your argument, we have sacrificed defense to get our increased offense.

    The record says 8-1, but the defense has not been there. On nights like the last two, when shots are not dropping, defense gets you a win. Anyone who thinks the Ps will run and gun all over Miami and Indy (or Cleveland) are kidding themselves. It's going to take the best defense in the East to get wins.
  9. Superstarov

    Superstarov First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    720
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Midland, MI
    I'm sure this won't be popular. But that never really bothers me anyway, so....

    I'm already thinking about who we can get at the trade deadline for McDyess. He looks horrible. I'd rather see Darko out there relying on his insticts, which BTW need to get better, than Dyess lumbering around like an Atlzheimers patient.
  10. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    yes. we sacrificed a little bit of defense for a whole bunch of offense. yes. lindsey somewhat stops other teams guards but he also stops us to a halt also. i'd rather have arroyo stopping the other guard sometime and us scoring on the other end instead of lindsey. truth be told there aren't that many contenders with super quick guards on them. dallas gives us trouble because they are willing to go small and josh howard and daniels give us trouble. chauncey is already our solution to small guards he punishes them. now rip will have to start punishing small guards as teams have caught on to this and put smaller quick guards on rip.

    on nights like the first few games of the season when your defense and offense is clicking the pistons are pretty much unstoppable. actually i do think we can run and gun with the other teams. we have a lot of quality offensive players especiallly our second unit. defense wins games but you still have to put up points. in my opinion lindsey only stops 2nd unit inexperienced guards. he's good for spot defense only at this stage of his career.

    last night wasn't a normal night. dallas just flat out couldn't miss. they were hitting from inside and from outside. even if our defense was on them they still were hitting the shots. chalk last nights loss up. nothing to worry about.
  11. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dallas was indeed hitting some incredible shots last night, but this is the NBA. If you play lousy defense in the first quarter and let a really good team get comfortable, they'll still be making shots in the fourth when you're draped all over them. So that excuse doesn't wash with me.

    For four years the Pistons have emphasized "setting a tone," but lately they've gone tone-deaf. It's the trend I'm talking about, not just the most recent game. Our backcourt hasn't looked at all good against more athletic guards from Dallas and Boston. I know we complained about this last year, too, but it's more of an issue now with Lindsey out. Some time in the near future we'll need to augment our long versatile guys with hellishly quick ballhawks ... the kind other teams are going to start using to pressure Chauncey all game long, like the Mavericks did.
  12. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    Windsor, Ontario
    Easy fella, you make it sound like I slept with your mom or something. Its nothing personal, just my opinion.

    Our bench has sucked. That is where we miss Hunter. Our starting 5 is the one that has been putting up the 100 point games and winning us 8 games to start the season (all against teams we should beat), not our bench. So that point is moot.

    Name me 1 game that our bench has won for us. Or 1 game so far this season that our bench has outperformed the opponents.

    8-1 is nice, as was 8-0. I'm not complaining about the record, I'm just saying that the team is better, deeper and more experienced with Hunter on it.

    Hunter is the defensive specialist, but we still need an experienced, legitimate scorer off the bench.

    Potential is nice, but production is what matters (just ask the Lions).
  13. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    11,648
    Likes Received:
    295
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    I agree that these are areas where we "could" be concerned, but I still think it's not early enough where we "should" be concerned...at least we shouldn't panic (not that anyone is).

    I hafta agree with bballJay that the bench hasn't been given an opportunity to show their stuff yet. Also, yes...we could be 6-3...we also could be world champions after last year. But we are not. We ARE 8-1. I think the weaknesses can and will be addressed.

    I'm not saying that it won't turn out that you are absolutely correct. But I just won't let one loss bother me any more than I will let an isolated great Lions victory excite me.

    Dallas looked like world beaters last night. They are a very good team and the Pistons were flat and tired. If it were a 7 game series I'd bet on Detroit. :thumb:
  14. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    1
    our defense has not got worse

    our defense has not got worse let me get that straight. the pistons just sucked last night, but besides that its been great. truly do you guys think the pistons were playing there hardest, they were on a back to back and they probably thinking of going back home. now that this win streak is done the bench will get more experienced with more pt, and maybe some of the bench players mainly dice will start to do good. the starters will have more rest and they will have more energy to play their hard-nosed defense something they didn't have energy to do last night. we'll have to see this team do that bad consitantly for us to get worried at least that is what i have to see. oh and lindsay was a big part of the defense and when he comes back this "worse" defense will gat better.
  15. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    Windsor, Ontario
    I do think their D has gotten worse, but that isn't to say that it won't get better. It might just be a case of them focusing on the offence right now, because its a new system.

    I don't base it just on last night's game, its been all 9 games. I haven't seen much of the "lights out" D as Sheed calls it. Too much dribble penetration, too many easy buckets, too many offensive rebounds, not enough contested shots, too much zone D!

    I'm hardly losing sleep over it, but the D and bench could definately be better.
  16. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    our bench has not sucked. mcdyess has sucked but the rest of the players on the bench simply have not sucked. they have kept or even increased all leads they have been handed. arroyo has regained his shooting touch. delfino is shooting well and so is darko. maurice evans is hitting from the 3. the second unit will not be a defensive stopper second unit so stop trying to make it one. simple as that we don't have that type of players on our bench. use them to thier strengths.

    our bench simply hasn't had the chance to play so of course the starters have been winning the games. we have lost a game so look forward to the bench starting to contribute more. i will say that the bench has won us some games because of the rest factor. arroyo filled in nicely when chauncey was in foul trouble. our bench is good it's just that are starters are great.

    i'm just saying that lindsey has run his course. he's a spot defensive specialist at this point in his career. that doesn't mean he isn't useful it just means that he shouldn't be on the floor much. it's time to start letting our young guys get some floor time and get experience and gain chemistry.

    what production does lindsey bring?? lindsey is anti production both teams stop scoring when he is in the game. mcdyess isn't producing either. it's time to start looking at the potential instead of remembering when our vets were producing.
  17. lemonpen

    lemonpen First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southfield, MI
    KoolAid Shortage

    Alright Wave, going along with your concerns, lets say the big guy has a similar uneasy feeling.

    When looking at the Stones and what moves might be contemplated you better carefully consider the history of the man doing the contemplation. So far his signature moves have each carried a single theme, “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY, PLAYOFF LATELY THAT IS”. The list isn’t long but it includes those we once believed to be key to future success. Uncle Cliffy, Jon Barry, Corliss, Stack, Chuck Chuck…..

    I believe the management decision most influential to Joe Ds executive upbringing occurred just prior to his first ship. THE TEACHER out and MARK AGUIRRE in. How come ??? Dantly was just as good a scorer as Mark, but other qualities were cited. Mark offered a wider variety of weapons they said. But most of all Aguirre didn’t need to dominate the ball to be effective. Does Rip for Stack make sense now? AD needed the ball for 8-10 seconds per possession to do his thing, making us more easily defended. As a matter of fact I recall Tommy Heinson referring to AD in Celtic vernacular as “a pounder”, one who dribbles the air out of the ball. I think Joe faces the same conundrum with Carlos Arroyo. I’m not criticizing CA or anything like that. What I am saying is look at things from the BIG CHAIR.
  18. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    11,648
    Likes Received:
    295
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    You may be on to something here.

    When Joe was on WDFN 1130 a few days ago, he was asked what bench players he thought would help the team in the playoffs. He mentioned Davis and Delfino. He did NOT mention Arroyo. I really think we are going to trade Arroyo and ______ for a better backup PG and another player.
  19. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,305
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    On the bright side, at least they didn't lose to the Toronto Raptors...like....Miami!
    The most troubling thing to me is how well the opposing big men do against us. Mark BLount....c'mon. Eric Dampier...the guy was sucking until last night. I'm all for targeted D but the pistons have been off the mark in the first half. There has to be some lockdown early.

    I'm all for Darko getting a good chunk of dyess' minutes. Even with PT, Darko will be inconsistent. Dyess will have opportunities to get those back again.
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,895
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Great post. Btw, you are a regular rotation player now. ;)

    I'm not looking for a trade although that could be one answer. I think LanierFan has a great point about the changes in rosters league wide. Our athleticism was at one time an edge. Now most teams have increased their athleticism. The next step is speed. We don't have any raw burners on this squad. Arroyo certainly is not the most fleet of foot. Hunter is fast but strictly a specialist.

    Wins/Losses aside, some changes might be in order. This Pistons squad seems to be having trouble with their defensive identity. I get concerned anytime a coach says that the players know what they are doing. Great coaches impose their will on their teams. Popovich does it. Brown did it. Jackson does it. The only way around that is to have leadership like Zeke and Laimbeer who would personally take matters into their own hands.

Share This Page