Latest On The Josh Smith Trade

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by armygirl, Jul 21, 2008.

  1. Mike Honcho

    Mike Honcho First Round Draft Pick

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    I was trying to be a little funny, but some of the reports make it sound like we lost Michael Jordan (or at least Pippen) to Europe. He is a quality player, but not even a starter on less than a .500 team.

    His potential makes him worth more than mid-level but he was a RFA therefore a lot of teams didn't wanna sign him to an offer sheet then wait days only to find out that they did all the negotiating for the Hawks. Plus a lot of teams couldn't afford more than a mid-level.

    Does it blacken the leagues eye a bit that a quality young player left for Europe? Yup. In the long run though I doubt that the impact is felt much (except by the Hawks).
  2. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I agree with most of what you had to say on this until you got to the part about not impacting the league in the long run. The Hawks are the only ones who will feel the short-term impact. The league will feel this long-term because more and more players are going to take their game to Europe and make that coin. One of the top HS players in the country is talking about signing to play in Europe instead of playing at Arizona for a year or two. Ultimately, as we increasingly do things on a global level people will see the benefits to going to Europe if they aren't getting what they want or can here.
  3. Mike Honcho

    Mike Honcho First Round Draft Pick

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    He already did sign to play there. He signed a contract that enables to come back here next year. The best players generally want to play against the best compition which is and will be the NBA, that's why long term I don't think the NBA is sweating this too much.
  4. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Probably not but IMO this is exactly the type of thing they should be sweating. With all of the shady things going on in the league lately, they don't need anything else to hurt the leagues position from a marketing stand point and players going to Europe (at an increasing rate) hurts the league whether they want to acknowledge it or not.
  5. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

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    You're very correct, but you're only touching the tip of the iceberg. The reality is that the emergence of the European leagues are first and most primarily going to affect college basketball; you're going to see the Lebron Jameses and OJ Mayos of the world go to Europe at 16 or 17 where they can be making hundreds of thousands of Euros and playing against elite competition rather than continuing to play high school ball against local schlubs before interning for free at some college campus they plan on attending for a year until they're old enough to play in the NBA. That nobody really has done it before now is quite extraordinary - but once a couple big H.S. names go European the flood gates will open and rather than having NBA scouts watching 16-year-olds in a high school gym you'll see NBA scouts watching 16-year-olds in European gyms.

    But the NBA isn't immune to this, either. With the way the economy in this country (the U.S.) is going, and with the way the Euro is really bashing the dollar to bits, Europe may in the next 20-30 years become the ideal place for PRO basketball players, as well. I know a lot of you will roll your eyes at that, but Europe is really thriving right now and those teams may well be able to afford to pay some of the big stars in the NBA game within several years. How much of a coup would it be if a team like Barcelona stole one of the premier stars in the 2010 draft class?

    Frankly, I'd like to see the NBA recognize that international talent is almost equal to what we have in this country (if not already), and merge leagues with the IBA. I'd love to see an American/International league division - like what existed for so long in Major League Baseball - where the winner of the NBA championship played against the winner of the IBA championship. I think it would be a fascinating new dynamic in professional sports (one that hockey should have adopted a while back) to see America end its isolationist/elitist sports tendencies (Can you really call the Celtics "World Champions?") and really engage the rest of the world in its competitive sports. This may be just the thing to do that, and can you imagine if Josh Childress became the player that historians look back at 30 years from now and say "he's the one that started it all"?
  6. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    I don't see what the problem is.

    Childress and any other player should make the decision that's best for them and their families. If that means taking it over the pond, that shouldn't be viewed as insulting or an injustice. It's a personal decision that he can make of his own free will cause he grew up in the good old USA (unlike Yao who has to cough up a percentage of his pay to the Red Chinese homeland).

    That's what free markets are all about, selling your services and deciding the path of your own fate. Childress could've waited it out and been paid decent money here but he chose to optimize his decision making, by looking at the bigger picture, just like Delfino. He'll get more playing time, more money and his game will likely improve.

    If you want to see more cap space wait and see what happens as more players utilize free will. The NBA will have to adapt.

    For two decades we've been pilfering players from the international leagues and I don't remember reading anywhere how unfair it was to those leagues that we absconded with some of their best players. They didn't all come over to face better competition, many came for the money.

    Up until a couple years ago all of the professional teams in Canada were drained of talent because the Loonie couldn't stand up against the dollar. We literally destroyed the Canadian franchises in b-ball, baseball and hockey by utilizing the strong dollar as our primary advantage (good thing curling never caught on here).

    I can't remember reading any forums where Americans were holding their heads in their hands over the demise of Canadian competitiveness as we took their players, or being overly concerned how it impacted Canadian cities, economies and self image that were subsequently devastated when the teams were sold and moved to the US. (Go Grizz).

    While it would be interesting to see some games played between the NBA and some of the international leagues, it might be like watching a zebra race a horse. It simply isn't an apples to apples comparison cause the games are very different.

    Could be me, but last time I watched, the winner of the Finals is generally considered the NBA Champion, not the world champion.
    That world stuff is really just about marketing shiny objects to the locals when the crop comes in.
  7. Tha Locstah

    Tha Locstah First Round Draft Pick 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Who was saying it wasn't fair? I know I was just saying that I thought it was bad for the NBA in general. Not "unfair".
  8. kpaav

    kpaav Team Captain Forum Donor

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    No one is arguing that Childress is somehow cheating or making a based decision. You state that this is a free market, which it is, but the NBA is not. The ramifications of having a completely separate league that doesn't fall under the controlled "non free-market" of the NBA CBA are huge. The CBA works because all the team have the same rules. Now, RFA can use the European leagues and all they represent (no cap, no tax, euro, no tax, etc.) as a bargaining chip. This is good for the player, but the team will suffer. Basically, if this becomes a trend, then teams will be filled with absolutly no middle class - just the stars and bit role players. Imagine having to watch games with Stucky and Amir starting with the likes of Pepe Sanchez, Will Blalock, etc. Not good.
  9. Stuckey.And1

    Stuckey.And1 First Round Draft Pick

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    long term the NBA is sweating because the dollar is bound to crash even worse than it has

    I'm betting we'll see 30 million dollar contracts or something near it for Lebron, Wade, Carmelo in 3 or 4 years due to the inflation
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    That makes me wonder, how is inflation imbedded in the CBA for the salary cap adjustment?
  11. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Isn't salary cap dependant on revenues generated by the league?
  12. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    7 years til the crop comes in.
    Russia vs No. Dakota [D league]
  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Then I guess that would do it.
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    Ecxellent post. That about sums it all up.

    On the bright side this should end any additional expansion by the NBA for now. I think their justification for expanding the last time was the influx of foreign talent.

    We probably still do import more players than we lose though.

    On Smith. Kind of weird how things cycle around each year. Couple of years ago someone probably would have offered him and Okofur a lot more than what they will get now. All depends on which teams are setting the bench mark in that particular year. When Tay was re-signed his agent used the Bucks Bobbie Simmons contract as a bench mark.
  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    So now that the US dollar is weaker, we'll see all these teams migrate back to Canada? There were other reasons. Like market demand in bigger US cities (which explains why Toronto didn't lose its teams).
  16. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    I agree, the NBA is really a collusive Monopoly and the CBA is their dictatorial manifesto. The CBA is a 3 way negotiation between;

    A.The NBA (Stern)
    B. The Owners (Who Pay Sterns Salary)
    C. The Players Union.

    Guess what, A&B are one and the same. They have all the juice, they negotiate from a position of strength. They own the complete professional basketball infrastructure, they created the NBDL to make sure their power would never be challenged by another league again. (See Isiah Thomas and The Continental Basketball Association)

    They created the "cap" to protect themselves from themselves. It's about market preservation. It's all about collusion. They give up 57% of their profits annually to establish the "cap". Their arenas are almost always funded by the public, who they hold hostage by threatening to move elsewhere if city's don't agree to their strong arming.

    Childress was stuck in the NBA's mandated purgatory known as RFA.
    What the hell is a "restricted free agent"? The term doesn't even make sense, how can you be a "restricted" "free agent" ? That's a right given to teams by owners to keep other teams from giving real value to players (assets) having achieved some level of professional capacity. That's a "wink, wink" between owners.

    John Hollinger;
    "With so many high-quality restricted free agents, this summer's market is theoretically as talented as any in memory. The problem is the "restricted" tag, however. With teams swearing to match any offer, as they have the right to do with restricted free agents, even the teams with cap space are reluctant to waste their time bidding on RFAs."

    The current CBA does help create a middle class, but here's the rub, go back and look at the history of teams expensing money for "super stars", know what happened, the large market teams ended up with bloated salaries. They had their two or three high cost players and no quality role players. They shot themselves in the foot. More often than not they didn't make it out of the second round.

    In 2005 Dan Rosenbaum (Dallas) summed it up like this;

    "The model for success in the NBA has changed over the past 6 years I have been in the league. When I first got to the Mavs, there was no luxury tax, revenues from TV and the league went up every year, as did the salary cap. That changed dramatically with the leagues new TV deal and it changed even further with this years new collective bargaining agreement. Rather than an environment where salaries could go up because the cap and revenues were going up, we entered an environment where trades were made almost exclusively for financial reasons and rarely for basketball skill reasons.

    The Mavs tried to take advantage of the situation. When the annual league revenue increases stopped and a luxury tax loomed, teams adjusted their financial profiles. To get under the tax threshold, they offered good players packaged with horrible contracts. We took them. We hoped the talent would get us a championship before the number of bad contracts we took on in trades caught up with us.

    It didn't happen."

    In the end trying to buy a championship is too expensive in the NBA. It may occasionally work for the Yankees in baseball, but in the NBA the salary cap and luxury tax make it prohibitively expensive to go that route. Trying to buy a championship also tends to lead to teams with too many scorers and too few role players"

    "More importantly we have gone from just trying to acquire talent to have assets that in turn might be traded for better talent, to making sure we have players that fill a role.

    The problem with the idea of "acquiring talent to have assets" is that too often these "assets" have large contracts. But if a player produces less than his contract is worth, he is not an asset to the Mavs or any other team that he might be traded to. This reality becomes more important in a league with a luxury tax that doubles (or more than doubles) the costs of adding a player. In essence, we get back to the principle that a player is an "asset" only if his marginal productivity exceeds the marginal cost he adds to the team.

    And players who don't fit into a role on a team, i.e. don't have high match quality, to use an economics term, run the risk of seeing their asset value fall over time. Players who are poor matches often are not going to be happy in their roles. This leads to reduced productivity for the team and the perceived value of that "asset" starts to fall.


    Childress is an exception to the rule in that his talent exceeds his contract value but the "wink wink" RFA status stymies his ability to obtain just compensation because in reality he has no bargaining power.
    So he used a larger canvass to obtain what he thinks is just compensation for his services by going overseas. He opted out rather than be co-opted by the system. That's free will.

    It's not like the CBA was created to absolve a wrong perpetuated on the 80% of the league's players that were being treated as cannon fodder by self serving owners. The CBA is about market dominance, putting a greater number of mediocre teams in play in more markets. Giving everybody, everywhere a 50/50 chance, a watered down league.

    But if you control the licensing of all those shiny NBA doodads, it's harvest time baby. Control the markets and you control any potential future competition. For 20 years the NBA under Stern has been about monopoly. Not about giving every player an equal opportunity to excel. Player potential is reduced to asset value.

    Expansion and growth in markets like Charlotte, Memphis, Vancouver is about filling a void to keep it from being filled by someone else. That's why they allow those same owners to move those franchises to new markets of growth when failing.

    It's about total control and out flanking the opposition even if you have to suffer some losses along the way. The chummy owners are subsidized in their losses when new franchises like the Bobcats pay $300M to join their club. That franchise fee is shared among the existing owners (like Donald Sterling). The players are merely pawns in that game.

    Does 57% of the revenue really sound fair to you? I'm not drinking the kool-aid. Childress and many others are penalized by the current CBA because they are merely math assets (pawns) who's sole value is reduced to their contract.

    On top of that, like Stuckey.And1 just said, the value of the dollar was trading yesterday at 1.57 Euro's to $1 dollar. So for every 1m, in Euro's you get $1.57M, a $4M contract here translates to $6M+ contract there. So Childress did exactly what anyone in here would probably do, took the money and opportunity to ply his services in a market that would pay. That is the American way.

    If the dollar stays weak the NBA will have to address the hard cap pretty quickly or you'll see the same talent drain here that Canada had to deal with for the last 30 years. Funny how stuff works.
  17. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Fine Point.
    Collusion is illegal. Anything the NBA does within it's agreed upon contract is legal.
    It's like anti-reverse discrimination, the laws were set for fair play.
  18. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    OK, so the dollar is trading at 16,750 Vietnam Dongs. So a $4M contract here will translate to a 64B Dong contract in Vietnam. I'm surprised Delfino didn't give up the NBA to chase the strong Dong.

    By the way, the Dong rose sharply today before slowly fading back to its initial level.

    Here's the graph. U.S. Dollar to Vietnam Dong Exchange Rate - Yahoo! Finance
  19. G-man

    G-man Starter

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    uh.. what that means is you send those euro's home and exchange them for us dinero at your local bank and you're up +57% on each dollar earned..shouldn't be too difficult to get your arms around...

    You have any investments paying a 57% return on each dollar invested?
    Oh Josh looks pretty smart right about now ..eh
  20. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Right! Well, aside from terrorism, of course. :nerd2:

    Don't be a downer. It's not happening. That's what people thought the last time oil spiked (like 20 years ago).

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