Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mercury, Sep 16, 2005.
Go to the thread "LB clip from last year". The link is in the original post
@ Max - I ain't debating it or claiming you are wrong. Just trying to discuss alongside your points.
@ Low - Yeah, there is a LB/Darko clip here in this forum. We condensed the Darko posts into this forum today.
That isn't what I was saying at all.I'm sure he drilled it into thier butts many times over irregardless he IMO shouldn't bring it out into the media where you as everyone else knows if it isn't on video(especially) it gets blown way out of proportion.I was misquoted I really meant blah blah,I never said that....It causes animosity period whether it was meant to motivate or not.I feel that goes for the players too calling out the coach or fellow players.Be a man and take it to them.If he felt they didn't listen then starter or not give em a message sit em down start someone over them for a game.
You must really dislike the fact that I want to back our new coach. He is not a loser. And no I am not trying to convince YOU of anything. I can’t see how you of all people think that flip is a bad coach or are you just saying lb was superior to him in every way shape and form. regardless the fact is so what lb went to the finals in Philly yea I knew that but to discredit flip for his trip to the conference finals is just stupid. Your entitled to your opinion since it is your forum but to be so offended that you attack my post with such ferocity is petty and sad besides flip inherits a far better team than the ones in minny. And to say lbs track record is so great that he had far more success it rarely carried from one year to the next or does that not count. Flips teams made the playoffs for 7 years ... that means no lotto picks only people who you develop or can sign. In my opinion that is not too shabby. How many teams would love to be able to say yea we made the playoffs 7 years in a row? Screw the fact that they lost against the Lakers and spurs they won it all. They had a decent team but not great they had 1 great player and that’s it. How can you dispute that.
The reality is that Flip was knocked out for 7 consecutive years in the first round. Any coach would be fired after 3 maybe 4 attempts max.
I don't dislike your backing the coach, but be realistic about who Flip is and what he has done. He's a mid-to-good coach in this league. He's certainly no Rick Carlisle, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Jeff Van Gundy, Gregg Popovich. He just ISN'T.
He doesn't have the credentials in 9 years in the NBA. He is a MAJOR downgrade from LB.
Now he can get better certainly, and this will be the best team he's coached, but you put a so-so driver in a Formula 1 car, you probably are not winning Indianapolis. Get my point?
Just as you have your perception of my position, I am also aware of yours. It would be nice to get some clarification as to where you stand on winning. Is it ok if Flip comes in and loses? Are you ok with us losing in the conference semi-finals? What if Flip stays for 5 years and we never make another Finals. Is that hunky-dory?
I'm all for supporting Flip. If we come up short and don't have an injury situation to absorb some blame, then I put it on the coach, because warts and all, LB did have us in the dance for 2 straight years.
And that is what this thread started out on. Will we be better or worse? And I think we will be better in the season and worse, in the playoffs.
Low, I think you're missing the point. Larry wasnt a bad coach because he was a hardass, he was bad because he didnt give all his players a chance. There are plenty of tough coaches out there that I absolutely love, especially in football, Bill Cower, Herm Edwards, and two really big SOBs, Bobby Ross and Tom Coughlin. They treated everyone the same, and if you produced you played, if you didnt, you got yelled at.
Coaches like LB and Bill Parcells have their favorates, have their egos, they have to be right. And once they decide they dont like a player, that guy is not going to be allowd a fair chance at playing.
A good coach plays his best players, not just his favorate players. And everytime LB put Darvin in the game, he was showing he'd rather play a player that he'd like than a player that would help him win a game.
16.....if we fall short of the Finals this year sounds like you'll still be happy as long as Flip keeps the young players happy. Who would you rather have Bill Parcells or Wayne Fontes? Wayne Fontes kept his players happy...gave them a lot of hugs and all...Larry Brown is a Hall of Fame Coach and it's tough to follow a legend. The pressure is all on Flip. Missing the Finals will mean failure...I don't care how many hugs he passes out.
you miss the point, LB being hard or tough on Darko wasnt the problem. I could care less about LB yelling at Darko. The problem was he would not play Darko in meaningful minutes under any situation. And this was not because of Darko's ability to play, but because Larry just didnt like the kid.
Larry may have been a basketball genius, but he based playing time on his personal feelings towards players, not on their ability to help us win.
DAvison seemed to think that LB would have destroyed the team had he stayed.
We are forgetting one major point. LB did not want to be here.
First off, Larry wasn't "bad" at all. He was THE BEST. There isn't a better coach in the game right now. I don't care who he has a gripe with.
By LB playing Darvin, he's showing me that he'd rather play guys that do what they're told rather than guys who only want to go on the floor and do what they want to do. LB's *#$& list seems to be populated by players who feel they don't need to do what LB asks, LB should just let them do what they feel like doing. ...and in my book, if a guy refuses to do what the coaches ask or expect from them, they immediately fall out of the "best players" category because they are now a detriment to the team each time they are out on the floor doing it "their way".
Even IF you believe LB didn't want to be here; have you ever had a job you didn't like (and this job was far from unlikeable)? Did you quit the first day? or did you wait for your boss to say, "...you don't look like you want to be here, you're fired."?
Nice Guys vs A-holes
Excellent question/thread Merc, truly not an issue you can easily choose which is right or wrong on. I'm more the kind of guy that likes/respects a player that refutes whatever criticism and goes out of his way to prove his critics & naysayers wrong. I guess that's why I always was so disappointed when DMC got in at alleged garbage time and didn't even attempt to show us or the coaches what he was really all about!!! With that said I must agree that the way LB was all over every single little thing Darko did most of the time would likely annoy the HE11 out of anyone. I mean give the kid a chance to screw up before beginning to endlessly critique & harass him, you never know he may get it right if you just let him concentrate and play naturally. Bottom line I have always liked/preferred players coaches like such as our own Chuck Daly, the tyrant theme in my humble opinion can eventually some folks down. I definitely do NOT want some nice guy that won't stand up to or challenge his players when they need to be... So I guess my answer is player's coach YES, but nice guy HE11 naw!!!
I want us to win, win big, and win it all !!!!! By your logic Jerry Sloan should have been fired by utah a long time ago. you simply cant say that Flip is a losing coach because the timberwolves didnt make it out of the first roud 6 out 7 years. they had marginal talent KG begged them to get help took a paycut so they could try to get better players to come to minny. Kg simply carried that team. all of minnys starters except KG would come of our bench. the t-wolves never realy stood a chance against la or sa ever they still dont. they just didnt have the talent. Yes i want to win do i think our team is good enough right now to do it no. IMO our bench just does not have what it takes. Right now i dont have faith in delfino or mo or whoever to give tay and rip a break without a huge dropoff in production no. do you want to put your faith in acker to play big minuets this year so he would be ready come playoffs?? I know you dont because you want to win now so do i but we need a proven player to come in or else. Do i think flip is smart enough to do the job yeah but joe needs to help him out a little bit more.
Hi all, Jman here. I think we're getting split too far into the LB-great / LB-awful camps. Back in the summer when LB was "freed to pursue other opportunities" the situation reminded me of Doug Collins' end. He too was a good coach, very intense and peripatetic (sp?), and brought the Pistons' play to a higher level than before. But it seemed that there wasn't any place further to go than down, the team was losing patience with his crazy ways and so the bosses decided to cut Collins loose before things got worse. Yeah the replacement wasn't so hot, but it probably was better than the coming disaster that would have happened had Collins been kept on. Reading Terry Foster's weblog from a few months back over at the DetNews really confirmed this, at least for me. The players (and bosses) sounded like they thought "Great LB, thanks for getting us up the mountain, now please leave before you drive us over the edge."
About Flip being an at-best good coach since he never made it out of the first round, I haven't heard anyone address these two questions yet. First, what player on any of his 1st-round-exit T-Wolves team, other than KG, would have started on this year's or last year's Pistons team? If none (I can't think of any right now but don't know that well), or if only 1 or 2, not getting out of the first round sounds expected rather than unacceptable. Second, what year should they have won, who was the inferior opponent they lost to? I don't buy the "odds are they should have won 1 time" argument, that's applying a random coinflip principle to a 7-game playoff series where the "best team always wins" (Dumars' quote). Not looking to start (or further!) an argument, just honestly wondering.
Would you agree (or not) that very few coaches get 7 cracks at making it out of the first round? That is my point. Some coaches get fired for not taking a team to the top of the mountain (Carlisle) and some get fired for terrible performances (Terry Stotts - Atlanta).
An organization is either over committed or desperate to retain a coach after 5 first round exits, let alone 7. Luckily for Minny it worked out in year 8. But then the wheels promptly fell off in year 9.
I know, it's the players, it's who they played, it's the roster, it's which side of the toast that got buttered that morning.
In Detroit, we brought in our last coach to be a difference maker, and for the most part, he was. Do you feel that Flip can be a difference maker? Can he outcoach Carlisle? or Van Jeremy?
We've probably got 3 tough series to win another title. Based on credentials, Flip doesn't give me a sense of security or confidence. Am I wrong? If so, please tell me so I can sleep better.
the problem is lb didn't outcoach carlisle, popavich or van jeremy last year. so why should the measure of flip have to be that. flip will improve the pistons offensively and with our youngsters actually getting to play. so i would say yes flip will be a difference maker.
I think you missed Game 7 vs. the Heat.
How exactly is Flip going to improve this team offensively? Besides Darko, which youngster is going to play?
Delfino? He's gotta compete with Super Dupe, Mo Evans and Hunter for minutes.
Think this stuff through. Flip is not big on the 3 point shot, his teams never shot a lot of 3s. Is Flip going to keep the ball in CBs hand and we stop being a team with 6 double digit scorers and revert to an offense like most teams have with two 20 PPG players?
Is he going to teach Chauncey how to finish a break? or Lindsey for that matter?
There is not going to be some big offensive explosion by the Pistons next year. The only way to put up big #s is to get up and down quickly which means slacking off on defense which plays away from our strengths. So will Flip improve us offensively by 3 PPG? And how much will we give up defensively to get that?
This is what I am talking about. Once fans start to get into the #s and away from preconceived notions of who incoming or little used players are, then you are left with the truth. And there is no wishful thinking there, just cold hard facts.
This is a good point about the fast break. No way will the guys have energy on D if they pull a Phoenix out there. I'm not sure the Pistons really improved their offensive talent with their draft picks and pickup of Evans. Not right away, anyway. I don't think they'll be worse. A lot of it has to do with Arroyo finding his shot and Delfino doing something - anything. Arroyo isn't hard to defend in the half-court 'cause you know he's going to look to pass most every time. Will McDyess have the same sort of season? Flip's got his work cut out for him, I'll tell ya. Solid defensively and on the boards. On the offensive front? Who knows?
darko, arroyo and delfino are going to make an impact this year. i also have a feeling that jmax will make a bit of a splash this year. i do know that flip won't play a 7 man roster. even if it isn't made up of youngsters. our bench will be stronger this year. i think this will be because of flip.
flip will take the cuffs off our best offensive player. chauncey won't wait until the 4th quarter to shoot the rock anymore. flip will also probably go to sheed, tay, rip or chauncey instead of ben the first play of the game. that increases our points output by 2 points already.
i'm not looking for an offensive explosion. i'm looking for the offensive droughts to stop or not be as long. flip will have arroyo has his main pg sub instead of hunter that increases our points production 5 points at least.
flip will also probably feature sheed in the offense ala kg. this will kinda force sheeds hand offensively which increases our scoring output from last year.
i think you just want to doubt flip just because he isn't lb. he's not a hof coach get over it. but that doesn't mean he can't bring something good to the pistons. he doens't even have to bring anything extra just use what we already have on this team. which is a good defensive team and some offensive weapons.
the thing people forget is that the second unit does not have to play exactly the same style of ball as the first unit. our second unit is just simply made for running the fast break. arroyo,delfino, dupree/evans, dice and darko. we can put up points and then our starters can come in and grind it out if that's what the situation calls for. actually arroyo is great in the halfcourt he's one of the best pick and roll pg's in the game. him and mcdyess have a great chemistry and that's all done in the half court. dice will be featured in the half court sets with darko crashing boards for his points.
I'm down with that, man.
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