LB's an Ass

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mercury, Sep 16, 2005.

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  1. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Guess I'm stradling the fence on this one...
    I think the LB detracters underestimate his attention to detail and game time adjustments... sometimes they're too caught up on the injustice to Darko to admit that DMC wasn't nearly as good as the guys he would take minutes away from.

    As for the Saunders inferior guys, I don't think it's fair to judge his playoff success based on A) Lakers and Spurs talent superiority over the past 7 years &
    B) His hands being tied due to several years of sanctions and limited cap because of KG's bankroll
    If the Lakers (in their prime) and the Spurs (best teams) were in the East, the Pistons likely would be looking a lot like the Twolves until 03/04.
    Just lke Darko... Flip deserves a fair shake and a clean slate to see what he can accomplish with a deep & talented team... the team Also needs a couple months to adjust to Flip's strategies... This could cost us a top seed.
     
  2. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    yes. but lb's gametime adjustments got too predictable.

    the other team is scoring - he puts in lindsey hunter
    we are scoring too much - he puts in lindsey hunter
    our bigs are in foul trouble - he puts in lindsey hunter
    arroyo has a great game - he puts in lindsey the next game
    rip's jumper is off - he puts in lindsey hunter
    we are getting killed on the boards - he puts in lindsey
    bowen is d'ing rip up - he runs the same play
    sheed gets 2 fouls - he sits the whole half
    chauncey is abusing parker = he calls the same play for rip
    mcdyess has 4 fouls - he sits the most important minutes of his nba career.

    i would have been happy with dmc playing 2 minutes in the finals instead of tay at pf. i think he would have did better at pf than tay. in that situation he was better than the player he would be taking minutes from.
     
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    bballjay

    I'm not down with Flip because I think he is on the outside edge of a top 10 NBA coach. We took a hit in the coaching department.

    Heck, you could let CB shoot more and play the kids. That doesn't mean you are a championship coach.

    You wanna talk Flip, let's talk Flip. What do we know, what data can we gather, and what theories can we draw prior to the season starting.

    You gotta remember, there are only so many minutes to go around. Evans is going to play. He's making Delfino dollars. With 5 bigs including D Square, where exactly does J-Max fit in? He ain't playing at the 3, we have plenty of guys there already.

    This is what I mean. If you want to say that Flip will make us better by doing X + Y, then break it down my man. Show me how we are going to gain 3 PPG. Explain to him how it is better for CB to look for his own shot than start the offense when its proven that big games from CB scoring wise do not equate into more wins.

    You say I don't like Flip because he is not LB. Well some of you cats give me the distinct impression that you would be happy with Ronald McDonald as head coach as long as it is not LB.

    LB is gone. But this cat needs to make all of you guys happy AND win or he is a failure. In fact, he just needs to win, and to heck with who he plays and who he pals around with. Because if firing LB sends us back to the pack, I will be really, really ticked off at JD.
     
  4. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Above are some responses...My meassage was to short so here is six characters for the boards satsifaction.
     
  5. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Mercury 10:11 post

    Nothing wrong with fence straddling Mercury.

    "I happen to feel that the degree of a persons intelligence is directly reflected by the number of conflicting attitudes (s)he can bring to bear on the same topic. " ------Lisa Alther-----:nod:
     
  6. max

    max All-Star

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    Flips Record

    Microwave brings up a valid point on Flips record. But his team only had home court 1 time out of all those 1st round losses and that one home series loss was to the Lakers.

    Minni never had a great team through all that. If you want to blame someone then blame McHale. All McHale ever did was draft Kevin Garnett.
     
  7. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Larry emotional subject

    The problem is for those bashing larry is that he led the team to a championship. I certainly don't want to give that back. And yes, micro, Skip has not proved much. On the other hand, I watched some of the things that BBall Jay referred to this playoffs. I also saw a man who was just not as animated and resourceful as he was the year before. My conclusion was that had Larry came back, our offensive style of play would have to change. It is not so much, Micro, that we will automatically be better. But with the players we have, we were running at about 75%. We have to improve this year offensively and defensively if we want to get to the finals because our opposition is better and they know more how to play last year's pistons. We were predictable and tried things over and over again that didn't work with the exception of game 7 Miami when Larry burned Van Gundy in the second quarter with Sheed and Dyss going outside when he went to Mourning/Shaq. I think that Larry took the team as far as he was going to take them. Now, we will see if Flip can do something too. He is inheriting the best front line (and deepest) in the game.
     
  8. Pwn Toney

    Pwn Toney All-Star Forum Donor

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    Ex-actly.:pout:
     
  9. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Let's just say thanks and move forward.

    I don't know about that. I don't even think most of the debate in this thread has credence. Most of LB's decisions worked. We loss by one game in the Finals. One game. Most basketball analysts did not give us that. Many predicted that Miami was actually better than us last year. LB is an excellent coach and his adjustments are usually spot on. Wow, if you people are second guessing LB's decisions like this, I can only imagine what you folks will say when Saunders finally starts leading the helm. People, Flip is not going to outcoach one of the greatest coaches of all-time. Just not going to happen. We are banking on the fact that we don't need the greatest coach to win anymore. When we won the championship, we absolutely anihalated the Lakers. LB's presence was one of the reasons we won. No LB...No Sheed...No rounded development of our starting 5...No championship.

    Last years finals could have gone either way realistically. We had a good formula. I really hope Flip just looks to tweak, because if he does a total overhaul we might not even make the Eastern Conference Finals. Let's face it...we have no idea what to expect from this club until they play a few games....and even when they do, most will say they need more time to gel under Flip's new system. The playoffs will be the indicator. Flip's success will ultimately be based on how well he performs in the postseason.

    Thanks LB for the championship! I hope to say the same to Flip at the end of this NBA season.
     
  10. Jman

    Jman Second Round Draft Pick

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    Hi Micro, you didn't answer either of my questions - when did the T-Wolves not advance out of the first round when they clearly *should* have, when their roster had superior players and their opponent was an inferior team?

    I hear you though about the LB-bashers. The proof is in the 'ships for sure. I merely suspect, especially after reading Foster's weblog on detnews.com, that LB's time in Detroit was like putting a turbo-charger and Nox on a car (they do lots of that here so I know!:) - you'll get amazing performance and be able to climb monster-dunes, but eventually it'll burn out your engine, and it was looking like the burnout would occur this coming season so the Pistons' adjusted before it became a disaster, as they did with Collins' some years ago. Just looking into the future. But who knows?
     
  11. max

    max All-Star

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    Coaches

    Like Jman wrote Minni never were the favorites in all those defeats. But it would have been benificial to Flips career had he or Minni decided to go in a different direction. When Saunders was fired he was still at it. He would have stayed for as long as they wanted him.

    Given the past Piston coaches. LB, Carlisle with the Bird connection, I think a coach who is 100% dedicated to the team not only in the current season but also with the long-term health of the francise goes a long way.

    Will the Pistons be middle of the pack? If Flip is a complete incompetent coach then perhaps but he is not. LB did a lot of things the Wrong Way last season. He failed to properly adjust his team to the new defensive calls. Foul trouble was often a problem. Rip had a very hard time adjusting early in the season. Just a general lack of motivation and letting the team coast can be attributed to LB.

    If you are looking at the Sixers and how they went from the 2nd round to the lottery after LB. Injuries were the problem. LB had AI for all 82 games and Ayers had AI for only half of them. Coleman missed most of the season, Jackson missed most of the season. LB could not have done any better.

    Its going to be an interesting year with the 2 NBA mega coaches JAckson/LB taking on project teams. NY seems poised for a better year by picking up Richardson for a song and getting a decent draft pick. Plus if Houston is back? Allen did play in the storm releif game so thats a good indication that he may last a season.

    It will be business as usual for LB. He will get credit for turning the Knicks around and be happy with a 2nd round defeat.

    ALl I know if FLip is going to have a better year than LB.
     
  12. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    You know what even we did gat Melo or D. Wade they would probably be in the same situation Darko is in because LB couldn't develop a young player if his life depended on it.
     
  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Perception vs. Reality

    From Philadelphia Daily News courtesy of Pinnacle Hoops.

    Don't make me dig out the Mark Cornstein quotes ok? Perception and reality are not always the same.

    Oh, and besides KG, who has Flip developed?
     
  14. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Darko & LB

    Sure, LB was probably murder on Darko, more than likely scrutinizing every play, constantly and consistently badgering him every time Darko chose to play away from the basket. I can see LB chewing Darko's A-- after each game that he deviated from what LB wanted him to play, you know the three pointers. I think Darko shooting three pointers was his own passive-aggressive way of dealing with LB's outbursts, his lackadaisical play may have also been his way of managing his emotions and saying screw you LB. Now in real life when we are on a job with a manager who just gives us fits, never can do anything right. On a real job how do we react to this situation? One or two things will happen, #1 Get a new job, or #2 Go postal. We may in fact take the high road, by just dealing with the situation and do some major @#@### kissing for twenty years or so, by that time our confidence is shot.

    I have always mentioned LB as being a very passive-aggressive individual with some major personality issues. I cannot say however, that Darko's lack of progress is totally synonomous with LB's lack of dedication to developing young Darko. Hopefully we will see a more energized and self-confident Darko this year, playing in the Euro league this summer is more than likely the best thing that could have happened to Darko.:usa:
     
  15. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    To add to this I recently heard a Dalembert quote saying he knew he was not ready for the NBA when he decided to come out... but he had to enter the draft because of family financial problems....
    We should at least acknowledge that most of these very young players are not ready to contribute immediately (no matter who the coach is)....
    I know folks don't want to hear this but I truly think DMC would have received PT this year irregardless of who the coach was... but the team may have been ready for fresh perspective (coaching change).
     
  16. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    you are right. i'm happy that lb is gone and flip was the best possible candidate out there at the time. i don't think flip is a better coach than lb i do think flip is a more than capable coach. lb came into a good situation and got a ship and lost one. flip is coming into the same situation. lb actually cost us the chance at getting mcmillan because he was dragging out the whole i'm sick drama. now he's healthy and working he's dream job give me a break. the guy is not loyal to the pistons at all so why be loyal to him. if you didn't notice we are back in the pack we lost the finals last year. there is only 1 nba champ.

    cb scoring more points makes us lose in lb's system. you can not think in the future what that is going to do under flips system. also cb doesn't have to score more but he can just do it earlier in the game. just think how the finals would have turned out if bowen had to switch to cb in the 2nd quarters of games.

    evans is not a lock to play big minutes. him and delfino will fight for the minutes at backup sg. dupree, jmax , darko all have a chance at small forward minutes. jmax can play the 3 what makes you so sure he can't?? you're right there aren't enough minutes to go around though. that's a good thing. prince's, sheeds and ben's minutes will be cut a bit. we will be fresh this year instead of dragging ourselves over the finish line at the finals.
     
  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I'll agree with that. Flip is the anti-LB in a lot of ways. Let's just hope he's the same when it comes to "winning" ways.
     
  18. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    do you think darko suddenly became a player when he crossed over the atlantic?? darko could have been doing this for the pistons last year and because lb was stubborn and had to go with vets he wasn't allowed to do that. the best thing to happen to darko already happened lb is gone. lb was dedicated to developing darko he worked with him in practice and after practice. he just wouldn't put darko on the floor to put it in use. i don't know what you mean by darko's lack of progress.
     
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    If you look up CB under Flip, they lost some games when Chauncey was filling the sheet as well. A system is a delicate thing. Think of the Pistons as an ecosystem. One changed variable can make it better or worse, and there is a precedent for the team being CB-centric. We fell apart when CB draws too much of the defensive attention or is injured. Think NJ in 2003.

    Our strength is in diversity and team play. I'm not saying CB can't score more, but the minute you relegate Ben to a non-factor ofensively (although he struggles) and allow Tay to hide in the corner, the wheels will come off. One of the great things about LB was that he forced Tayshaun to be involved by putting the ball in his hands and not allowing him to defer to others.

    I'm not questioning that J-Max can play the 3 or that Evans is a lock to play. There are a lot of players now competing for minutes at those 2/3/4 spots particularly if DMC is used as a PF.

    The bigger problem last year over fatigue was mental approach and discipline. Rip, CB, Sheed and Dice did not seem tired. Ben had personal issues all through the Miami series and into the start of the Finals with his son having surgery and (if I remember correctly) the death of a close friend. Tay was the only one who wore down and that can be expected when playing so many minutes in the last 3 years. Joe has said after the season himself that Tayshaun needs to get stronger and build his body up to handle the rigours of a full season.

    I worry that Sheed unchecked will mean more complaining to the refs and whining. From everyone. Guys like Pop are hard like LB. They ride their guys, scream at them and yank them in and out of games. LB was a case of diminishing returns, yet I can't think of a "players" coach who has won in recent history. Again, I'm hoping that Flip is not Charmin Soft or we are in trouble.
     
  20. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    if you call what sheed was doing last year as lb having him in check. i am worried too then. sheed will get his techs but this year it won't be as much of a problem because we are deeper at the big man spot. hopefully this year darko will actually start pushing sheed, dice and ben for minutes.

    cb under flip was on a totally different team. they weren't built like the pistons are. i think we will just disagree on how chauncey being a scoring threat will affect our team. him scoring does not automatically make tay and ben non factors on offense. i'm not saying chauncey should up his shot attempts by a significant amount just do it at a different time of the game. start us off right instead of just trying to save us at the end.

    well ben mentioned being tired during the season. but i didn't see fatigue from our bigs either in the finals. i did see nagging injuries that could have been healed. but they are a year older now and playing less minutes could extend thier careers and extend our dynasty.

    flip isn't as soft as people think. he will change his lineups if people aren't producing. he doesn't have to yell on the sidelines and cuss players out. he doesn't have to call players out in the media to get results. i think this team will be responsive to a cooler headed coach. the vets know what to do and the young players obviously didn't respond to a taskmaster type coach.
     
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