Discussion in 'Lions and Football' started by jammertime, Nov 12, 2007.
A winnable game turns into a loss on a tipped pass.....that sucks
For most of the game today, it looked like a repaly of Michigan vs OSU. Home team can't block and allow running game to get any yards and defense has hard time tackling oppositn team.
The story of the game however was the Lions abandon running game early and in nearly half of the 3rd down situations, Kitna throws two yards short of the first down marker and they are forced to punt or go for a FG.
The defense although inconsistent did hold the giants to one TD and the Lions could have won this home game, but the INTs came at the wrong time and unfortunately two were tipped and the other was taken right out of Lions hands...
The Lions are back to being their regular selves as two straight winnable games go by the wayside.....note to Millen: time to start drafting some offensive lineman and take your sights off Mario Manningham ... KJ is not good enough to play beyond the limitations of his offensive line.
things that suck about the lions, in no particular order:
- offensive line
- shaun rogers' conditioning
- shaun mcdonald
- game plan
- cornerbacks playing soft
- clock management
- football IQ
McDonald is not the problem. Martz is here. McD has been the answer too many times to bag on him. The real question is where was TJ to take over for KJ? 4 running plays and that's it to start? Last week we ran it 8 times, this week 11.
And even with all of these sucky things, there are 20 teams worse than the Lions.
They finally got me after that Denver win. I kept saying...no...not this time, but after Denver, I believed. Yup...they got me again. Charlie Brown and Lucy pulling away the football at the last second...I always think of that. But they still get me sooner or later.
I agree with you that McDonald played like crap, but not about him being cut (not sure if you were being serious there).
The mistakes he has been making are all "coachable" (except for that last drop, but that can happen to everyone from time to time). He has frustrated me to no end, but I like the fact that the mistakes have been because of effort. Trying to fight for extra yardage, refusing to go out of bounds, etc.
Mind you, they are stupid mistakes and they frustrate the heck out of me, but I can't fault his effort. I blame the play calling and lack of coaching for several of his mistakes more than McDonald himself.
When it's 3rd and 6 and a route that only goes 3 yards is called, McDonald has no other choice but to run the route that is called and try to fight for the first down.
When a "go" route is called for you at the end of the game with our top 2 receivers out and you're only 5'9" and the DB you're up against is 6'2" all you can do is try your best.
That being said, GET THE HECK OUT OF BOUNDS!!! This is about the 3rd or 4th game where he has cut it back inside to try and get an extra yard (when he already had a first down) instead of getting out of bounds when time ticking away.
Also, just like Kitna, he needs to learn when to limit a play's loss. Instead of going backwards when you're caught behind the line. Just accept a 3 yard loss instead of turning it into a 10 yard loss, or worse, a fumble, which have both happened to McDonald in recent weeks. I don't consider that "quitting" or not trying, I consider that playing smart.
You cut him to send a message.
The Lions are all business. You either do your job, or you look for a new one.
I know that doesn't sound really upbeat and compassionate, but I thought that was what the Sgt. Slaughter regime was going to be about. Accountability.
I don't think that would send the right message.
That last play was definitely one McDonald should have made, but I wouldn't can the guy because he botched it. He and Furrey are usually second options and I'm pretty happy with both of them in that position.
Coaches get mad at mental mistakes, not physical ones.
One of Tom Brady's receivers dropped a perfect pass that would have been a 50 yard gain yesterday. There was nobody within 10 yards of him and it hit him right in the bread basket. It didn't matter though, because he just came back the very next play and converted for a 1st down.
I have to agree with detteam, that would send the wrong message. The guy has overachieved as far as I'm concerned.
We have to remember that McDonald is our 4th receiver. He was signed as a 4th, he was paid as a 4th, but he has provided the production of a #1 or #2 WR. He is currently 24th in the entire league in receiving yards, 87 yards behind Roy for the team lead. I'll take that type of production from our #4 any day.
He has already set career highs in catches, receiving yards, yards per game and TDs with 6 games left to play.
I'm as frustrated by this loss - and the play of McDonald in this game - as anyone, but cutting him isn't the answer. The more I think about it, the more I feel that this is a coaching issue rather than a player one. Sure he needs to take responsibility for his actions (and he has during the post game interviews), but so do the coaches.
You guys are all a bunch of softies who don't understand Sgt. Slaughter's pound the rock philosophy.
McDonald didn't pound the rock, so now the rock must pound him.
Back to working as a grocery clerk.
On a more serious note, our return man sucks.
11 rushes in the entire low-scoring game? Is Duckett actually healthy (7 rushes in the last 3 weeks)? Duckett can pound the ball and KJ can too. I know the line sucks, but can't Martz rotate these guys at least enough to keep defenses honest? He blew it in AZ last week and did it again yesterday.
It's a shame the Lions don't have a speed back that can bust a gap or get outside, but I'm not sure Martz would know what to do with him anyway.
Sources (Hondo himself) said that TJ is healthy. There was a lot of news that was released ahead of the game that he would be a big part of the offense with KJ sore. That worked out didn't it.
Here's Hondo's take on the game from his insight and sources:
Anemic Coaching by Martz and Play by Kitna Cost Lions a Critical Win!
By Hondo S. Carpenter Sr.
November 18, 2007
Conventional wisdom coming into today’s Lions vs. Giants game was that Mike Martz would get it together. After getting an attitude adjustment during the bye week (thanks to Marinelli) the Lions OC, and not coincidentally the Lions, ran off a string of exciting wins.
Last week for whatever reason Martz went back to his old ways and the Lions got humiliated. This week it was more of the same. The Lions couldn’t sustain a drive and with yet again no rushing game, the Lions impotence was evident from the start.
I mentioned earlier in the season that if Marinelli didn’t succeed you would be able to look at Martz to see why. Today again that was evident. With tensions growing among the staff and the team as it pertains to Martz and his arrogant handling of his offense, it is clearly evident that his relationship and tenure with the Lions is heading towards a bitter divorce.
The Lions came into today’s game tied with the Giants for the NFC Wild Card and today’s game would have been a critical tiebreaker should neither win their division. The frustrating thing for the Lions and their fans is that this team is not an elite team, but they are a good team when they hit on all cylinders and Martz (and his ego) are in check. So now for two games in a row his inability (Isn’t he a genius? Just ask him!) to maneuver his offense makes it evidently clear that the Lions offensive issues are more Martz related than issues with the players.
Sure the Lions have the worst tandem of tackles in the NFL, but we have seen when they take a balanced approach they can overcome that. Why is the second overall pick in the draft essentially ignored? Don’t give me any excuses about his health. He is healthy enough to play and has to be utilized.
It is known that the defensive coaches and players are frustrated with him, and I can tell you that offensive folks have also echoed the same sentiments to me as well.
If you just looked at the score the last two games you would think that the Lions defense had struggled. That simply is not the truth. Joe Barry has done an excellent job this year with the D. One thing that you have to remember is that with an offense getting multiple three and outs with short drives, with little or no rushing game the clock doesn’t run and they don’t get any rest.
The Lions fans have bought in. They love what Marinelli is serving. The team trusts him and respects him like no former Lions coach in modern history. This is Marinelli’s team. I know that when he hired Martz he assured him that the offense was his. Marinelli has to assert himself and fix this or a promising season with a good football team could fall to ruin. I predicted nine wins and it is very evident that it could happen. The issue now is not the players; the issue resides in the offensive coordinators office. Will Marinelli assert himself? We shall see.
This team has holes, but the last two weeks they have not performed as they should. That rests with coaching. Not with the defensive side though.
The Lions D is coached very well. They will have to address the offensive deficiency. There is no excuse for this offense with this talent to be so anemic. It isn’t Barry’s fault that the Lions have spent so many picks on offensive skill positions and other than can’t miss prospect Ernie Sims have failed in the draft. With what he has, he has been outstanding. On the defensive side other than Shaun Rogers who takes games off in between Hall of Fame performances you can be critical, but you can’t accuse guys of quitting.
The Lions lost today. Sadly they never put themselves in a position to win offensively. I know this. Marinelli preaches accountability to his players and he gets it. Now he has to demand it from his OC. If Marinelli doesn’t get a handle on Martz ASAP, he may be in danger of losing his players. I am not predicting that. I have 100% confidence in Marinelli and think he will deal with it. Today they were only one for ten on third down. He has to say something.
Come this off-season I don’t think Martz has any chance of a head-coaching job. I also can’t see him being back in Detroit. The problem is that if he doesn’t address Martz he is throwing away a season.
Marinelli was very testy yet again in his post-game press conference and how can you blame him? The Giants had the ball for nearly 11 minutes more than the Lions and the Lions only ran the ball 11 times out of their 54 plays.
After the game Marinelli stressed that Calvin Johnson was healthy. The sad thing is that Martz lobbied and wanted him, yet he doesn’t use him. On multiple occasions he was on the bench and they needed him. He only had three catches and one of those was incredibly acrobatic.
Tension was evident when at one point after yet another failed drive Kitna went storming off the field mad, and when he approached Roy Williams who was sitting on the end of the bench alone, he just waved him off. Kitna went to the other end and sat alone to sulk. After his performance today he shouldn’t have been calling anyone out other than his OC and himself.
One player (not T.J. Duckett) had told me earlier in the week that they planned on using Duckett more this week because the Giants struggled against a power running attack. I called him on the phone after the game and asked him what happened and he said, “Who knows man. Why talk about stuff during the week and not do it?”
This team is teetering on trouble. They are too good to be here at this juncture. Two huge losses in a row with an offense that didn’t bother to show up is not good. Four turnovers and seven penalties today against a team that struggled against the run with only 11 rushes is simply inexcusable. Kind of like the last two games.
After the game Marinelli wasn’t afraid to point out his players mistakes and he shouldn’t be. Unfortunately he didn’t call out is OC. He should have done that.
It was also reported by Jennifer Hammond and Mike O'hara the same news about TJ.
I don't think the problem is with Duckett, it's with Martz. It isn't like KJ has been getting many balls either. Eleven rushes for KJ this week (our only RB to get a hand off in the entire game) isn't exactly smash mouth football.
Supposedly we have a speed back, Tatum Bell. I think the problem with edge rushing is more with our O-line than it is on our backs. I don't think we've had a single successful run outside all season. By the time our backs get to the line (usually well before they even get there), they're met by several defenders and are stopped for a loss.
Whether it's a toss, sweep, off tackle, or a pull, our line just isn't strong enough to get move the line of scrimmage or even slow down the rushers.
We have had our biggest success running up the middle either between the C and G or the G and T.
What I REALLY can't stand is when it's 3rd and 1 and Martz (in his infinite offensive genius) calls a toss play off tackle that starts out 7 yards behind the line of scrimmage. So instead of needing 1 yard, we now need 7 yards forward and another 4 or 5 yards left/right (to get outside) just get back to the line of scrimmage.
THEY HAVE CALLED THIS PLAY NUMEROUS TIMES THIS SEASON. How many times has it worked? ZERO.
Ok, I'm not being entirely fair. Martz has called a few inside rushes on 3rd and 1. The problem is, when he has, he has gone with 1 or NO WRs and their "jumbo" package.
The problem with this is that it makes the D's job that much easier. They don't have to worry about covering any WR routes, so they can stack the line of scrimmage with 11 men if they want. How many times has this play worked? ZERO. Why not go with the base I formation?
That still allows for a FB to help clear the path, PLUS 2 WRs and a TE that give the option of a run OR a pass. This O-line isn't going to out muscle anyone, they need to keep the other team guessing.
Oh yeah, Martz has also called a QB keeper on 3rd and 1. Except, instead of a simple "dive" play. Martz called a NAKED BOOTLEG. Again attempting to go outside. For a "genius", you'd think he'd know that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. I wouldn't even call this play for Michael Vick, let alone JON KITNA.
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble on. I'm sure most of you have stopped reading long ago. Those are just a few small examples of the many issues I have with our play calling this season.
good points guys. but it sounds like the Lions are at that .500 level and can't make the jump. Kitna is failing too. I'm ready to talk next season and keeping Martz. I heard Jon Scott the hurt lineman was essential to Lion run success, he is a 6th or 7th round pick.
He broke his hip last year. As much as the Dee has taken the ball away now the O gives it up. NOT gonna do it!!!
P.S. I've seen several teams to direct snaps to the RB on dive plays. you don't need a QB on 3 and 1. If your RB can't complete a short throw, I don't want him either.
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