Locker Room Rumbles?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, May 20, 2006.

  1. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2006
    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pat Caputo was asked if he heard anything about locker room problems and he said no. I hope it is not true. Though Ben has voiced his displeasure before. Funny, LB was the guy the players, not just management, also had enough of. At the end of 2005 they were ready to run him out of town.
  2. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    i don't think ben cares and wants to improve. i think he thinks he already has the game. ben's ego is out of control. he's not better than mcdyess and isn't better than darko will be in 3 years. we should stop trying to structure the O around ben. he needs to concentrate on defense cause in my opinion that's the area where ben has fell off.

    ben should be an oppurtunistic(sp) scorer and that's it.
  3. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    7
    You guys thinking Ben should get more touches obviously haven't seen him the last couple months. Right now, with that index finger killing him, he can't catch or hold onto ANYTHING. He used to finish alley-oops and tip-dunks all the time. Now the alley-oops are automatic turnovers, and on the attempted tip-dunks he just kind of smacks the ball toward the basket and screams like he's getting fouled (on EVERYTHING).

    To make it worse, he's hitting free throws at the lowest clip he EVERY has (since when does he air-ball them 50% of the time?), and it seems to be contagious. When he misses, our other guys seem to follow suit.

    If you're gonna let Ben go to work offensively right now, you might as well just throw the ball out of bounds and go back to the other end, because he's only going to be successful on wide-open dunks where no one can foul him. Otherwise it's a wasted possession 95% of the time. Sorry, but I'm not gonna take those odds to just help a supposed "lunch-pale" guy with his ego.
  4. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,285
    Likes Received:
    288
    I am not talking about structuring the offense around him. If running say 2 more plays for him per game will keep him happy and help him out at the line then where is the harm?
  5. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2006
    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    0
    How many of you guys think Ben will return next season? First it is clear that he doesn't like Flip's offense or his lack of participation/leadership. He seems to be generally grumbling more than usual. I would not be surprised if he leaves for the highest bidder or states conditions under which he would re-sign.
  6. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    against atlanta, charlotte and the likes i see no problem with ben getting 2 extra plays ran for him. against cleveland where the game is super close. no ben should not be getting plays ran for him. he can't score he should accept it and focus on what he is good at. everyone always tells me the playoffs are not a time for experimentation. that's how they justify delfino not playing. well we know what we are going to get from ben offensively there is no reason to try to see if we can get some offense from him.

    ben's ego is getting too big. we shouldn't have to do things in the game to keep him happy.
  7. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    3,759
    Likes Received:
    1
    What's up with his hand anyway?
  8. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Starter 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,957
    Likes Received:
    86
    Location:
    Vienna
    I tend to think that someone would have noticed it earlier than after reading it in an article if it was that bad...
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,892
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    Caputo is a columnist, and frankly he's not very connected with the Pistons. He just offers his opinion because he has the soapbox to do so. It's been quite some time since I read or heard something he had to offer *not Lions related* that had any value.

    Not at all claiming I might be right, but I thought something funny was up when this group of players wanted "props" and to prove that it wasn't LB. Ironically, 2 of them are coming up on big paydays (although Ben is careful never to say too much, it was mostly Chauncey squaking).

    I don't think you have the faintest clue what Ben does in practice or the offseason to make a comment like that. Should the DPOY think he has some NBA game? Against all odds, this is the kind of guy you love to hate, he made it from being undrafted and cut to a genuine franchise player. In fact, he's probably the greatest undrafted player in the modern era.

    Speaking of which, no one (with a brain between their ears, draw your own conclusions on that one) thinks that paying Darko another 21 million to wait for that 3 year from now breakout is a cap friendly idea.

    I think you are missing the point. He was making tangible improvements in his offensive game, while still being the 5th option. That has been arrested.

    Who else draws fouls on bigs on this team? Hmm? Dice with the turnaround fadeaway J and charges that always go against him? Sheed with his turnaround fadeaway J and total lack of respect from the refs?

    Go back to Game 5 and see how many fouls Ben drew. Let me know if you need the video. I guarantee you he had more to do with fouling out Varejao and Ilgauskas than anyone else on that team. If CB could buy a bucket or start playing before the 4th Q, this series would already be over.

    When will you guys stop writing about Ben like he is Mo Evans or Darvin Ham? If you don't know his value, if you haven't seen the effect he has had on this franchise, then someone is asleep at the keyboard.

    When his fellow players vote him the most intimidating rebounder in this supposed declining year, folks who actually play against him, maybe that is the wake up call that despite he is not popular, well spoken or handsome, he's quite possibly one of the greatest players ever to suit up for the Pistons. AND HE CAN'T EVEN SHOOT FOR THE LOVE OF PETE.

    It's too late for that this year, but I for one thought it was great that Ben could sneak in a couple 20 point games a year (which were ALWAYS Pistons wins).

    Folks refuse to look at this objectively. It's not just Ben's #s that are down. Tay's #s are down. Dice's #s are down. Sheed's numbers are a wash. This improvement in Hamilton and Billups is entirely at the expense of these guys. Which I think is fine except for the fact that the lack of paint scoring is indicative of a perimeter offense, not necessarily the fact the frontcourt is becoming mentally retarded.

    This will be bad. Not because I like Ben, which I am not ashamed to admit I am. Because there is no replacement. Even if Softo Sitalot was still here, you can't just go out and replace a guy who pulls down clutch offensive boards and makes the final deflection to save a game (see last match vs. Cleveland). DPOY bigs don't just grow on trees. At any given time there may be 2 big men in the league who play at that level. anyone care to name the other one?

    Again, I know Ben is a clumsy speaker. I know he isn't handsome or witty with the "yessir"s or gives himself a nickname like Smooth or Roscoe. I know he is not young anymore, and I know his free throw shooting is the most hideous of all time. But that is not enough to write off a valuable asset because of those damn FTs and the desire to see the team share the ball. Some of you folks have never heard the phrase, throw the baby out with the bath water, and those arguing for Ben's contract hurting us really have no clue about the team's cap situation.

    For anyone who has played, or does play, how well do you play when you never touch the ball or only get the ball as a last resort? Do you showcase your incredible "clutch-ness" or do you never quite find a rhythm? If there is one thing about basketball, you need to be in a rhythm at both ends to be effective. That doesn't mean more shots, the feature scorer etc, but unlike perimeter players such as Bowen who get touches swinging the ball, Ben gets completely ignored. If anything, you folks should not be player hating, but pissed off that our best asset goes misused.

    Sorry, I really needed to get this off my chest. I know Ben is not a perfect person. It's just so ferkin hypocritical for people to call him out for being mad about poor team play, and then comdemn him for not leading the team. Did you really think the pretty boys like Roscoe and Smooth are gunna tear up the locker room and lead a rah-rah charge onto the court to win the second half of a game?

    Maybe we should just neuter our best player and continue to underpay him.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,892
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    You know whose ego was too big? That European kid who felt that he was "entitled" to something. The one who is not even guaranteed to start next year for a lottery team.

    Folks should do things to keep Ben happy. Because he has made it clear that being the MVP, DPOY, rebounding champ, highest paid, All-Star is not his priority. Winning is. You wanna make Ben happy? Play championship caliber ball. Win more titles.

    You keep writing about him like he was some soft #2 pick from the 2004 draft who was worried about getting his next deal, not the guy who has left it all on the court for this team so many times.
  11. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    detroit
    he was entitled to a chance. the pistons didn't give it to him now they will have to deal with him next year with no ben wallace in the paint. it's not like ben could stop him in the paint anyway. he will be starting next year. he will be most improved player. that's the same lottery team that beat us and made ben seem like a whiny punk sitting on the bench afraid to go back into the game against him.

    everyone keeps saying just run a few plays for ben to keep him happy. why couldn't we give our # 2 pick a few minutes after 3 years to keep him happy??? if winning was ben's priority why is he complaining about more touches when we set a franchise record for wins?? why wouldn't ben go in the game against orlando if winning was what he was about?? why can't he take his free throws seriously if he is about winning?? dude if you can't see the difference in ben then maybe you have your big red goggles on. ben hasn't been the same ever since he really started feeling heat for his minutes coming from darko and dice.

    yes. ben has some game. i'll admit that. he's a great defensive player. he's a great defensive player. that's it. he is not an offensive weapon. yes. i love it that he beat the odds but now he thinks he's more than he is.

    sorry darko won't be breaking out in 3 years. darko will lead the nba in blocks next year. this year was supposed to be his breakout year. i truly think it was ben that was whining about not wanting to lose minutes to keep darko happy. flip made a choice ben or darko. now after next year we probably won't have either one. it may not have been cap friendly darko would have kept us in championship contention for another 10 years. ben isn't even getting the job done this year.
  12. Reve

    Reve First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    0
    Piston basketball is team.
  13. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2006
    Messages:
    933
    Likes Received:
    0
    Letting Ben go without an equivalent replacement would be suicide. I am sure Joe wouldn't allow something like that to happen. Flip really needs to throw the guy a bone on offense. Small gesture to keep Ben happy. Flip also needs to use Davis. Davis can be very productive pulling down offensive rebounds, clogging up the lane and knocking a few heads. Why is he made to ride the pine? The guy is a veteran.
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,892
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    It's team play. When they got rid of the central guy to hate (LB) and brought in a players coach, some guys developed agendas. It happens to every good team. The locker room starts to unravel when the expectations mount.
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,892
    Likes Received:
    1,739
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    That's just it. There are no equivalent replacements. I don't see Minny trading KG in a S&T for Ben (when Ben's cap # will go up and his age is greater). Not that I like KG in the least anyway. He's a great fantasy player (stats) but not a proven winner.

    Cap wise, we're gunna be over the soft cap regardless of giving Ben $4 million or $8 million more per year. The only hurt comes to Bill Davidson's wallet. It's not like signing Ben to less will suddenly open up all of this money to bring someone else in. We'll still only have the mid-level, bi-annual and veterans exceptions to use in FA. What I don't want to see is Chicago get Ben. That will be much worse than Rodman playing with Jordan.

    I don't think Davis fits in offensively. The one thing that worried me when Flip came over is that his centers in Minny never really got the ball or became a big part of the offense. Granted, he didn't have a lot of talent, but he didn't develop what he did have.
  16. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Amish Hood
    All I know is during the most important games Ben is typically the one who steps up and has a solid game (San Antonio game 7 & all the Laker series etc).
    Let's see which Piston shows up tomorrow.
  17. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    2,632
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Laurel, Maryland
    Good point Merc. Ben will certainly get his 15 boards and 3 blocks and be all over the court, but I am looking for Rip to go for 30-35 points. He and Ben will be da men!!
  18. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,285
    Likes Received:
    288
    Before hanging Ben on Contract speculation lets wait and see what he asks for this summer. Where else is he going to go?

    Not to thread jack this into Darko but he has not proven anything yet. For every 4 block 9 point game he had there was a corresponding 2 point, 0 block 1 board game to follow.

    Actually around Orlando circles they do not like how he spends most of his time out on the perimiter rather than the paint. They are yet to offer him an extension preferring to give in one more year which will place him as an FA open to other bidders next summer. Does that sound like a team sold on Darko?
  19. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    7
    Since when does "lunch-pale" guy have to mean he's a scrub? I thought Ben's whole mantra was to go to work every day doing the dirty work, and not worry about all that extra stuff. What happend to that guy?

    Flip should tell him he can have a few set plays once he starts hitting FTs at 60% clip. But when you can't score from the field outside of wide open dunks and you can't score at the FT line... I dont really get why he thinks he should have sets run for him. Is he about winning or making himself feel good?
  20. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lost in all the huffing and puffing is the fact that Flip's not standing there with one foot on the court calling every play. That was the previous pair of playbooks. If Chauncey wanted Ben to have the ball, he'd have it. Trouble is, Chauncey has never been a very eager post feeder. If you can't pick and pop for him, you're out of luck. Meanwhile the other guys give Ben a look from time to time, but only Rip seems to do it regularly. Maybe Ben should take it up with his teammates, if he's feeling left out.

    My belief is that Ben is extremely important to us, but that relying so much on one player to do what he does could ultimately retard the team's growth. So could letting that dependence crowbar Detroit into paying him too much.

    This is all hearsay, let's remember. But if Ben indeed wants to start %%%%%ing every time he fails to get his perceived due, then it might be worth the short-term pain to give him a sign & trade. We did pretty well with that the last time.

Share This Page