Main Problem of the Chauncey trade...

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by himat, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Because of the trade we don't have any leadership. Chauncey may have been taking "Stuckey's minutes" but lets look at what has happened to each player individually.

    AI: Great player, but when he came here we struggled. Because of this he did not walk in here and command respect right away. Usually the most talented player will quickly become the face and leader of the team, but that has not happened with AI.

    Rip: Usually our most consistent player. He has suffered through injuries and change of system etc. It has hurt him to the point that it seems like he hurts more than helps. You have to remember that he was an All Star, but under a lack of leadership from teammates and from himself he has struggled mightily.

    Stuckey: Stuckey played amazing in last years playoffs. Subbing in for Chauncey is one thing, but to take the reigns from him as the PG of a championship caliber team is a whole new level. Having Chauncey kept a steady hand to help him and now that he is gone we can see that Stuckey is not as ready as people thought he was. I mean he was replacing a guy who went through so much and learned how to be a great PG and that is not easily replaced.

    Tayshaun: Tay is too passive, unagressive etc. to be the leader of this team. He leads by example, but when everyone is struggling because of the void in the leadership the example turns out poor.

    Herman/Afflalo/Amir/J Max/Kwame/Bynum: Do I have to explain why these guys are not providing leadership? (They don't play enough)

    Dice: He has done well for us the last few years to pick up the emotion and heart in the playoffs, but one player is not enough.

    Sheed: Everyone keeps hoping he will become the star he was supposed to be, but at this point in his career do you expect him to change all of a sudden? He is and will always be a role player in a superstar's body. In 04/05 when he had good teammates who did whatever it took to win he was successful. Now that their is a large hole in that area he looks terrible. Its not a coincidence.

    Curry: What he lacked in experience...he was supposed to make up in strictness and toughness...:laugh:

    The trade did not lose us talent but if you thought the leadership was bad after Ben left well look at it now.
     
  2. lpgrl26

    lpgrl26 Bench Warmer

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    I would argue we lost alot of talent in that trade. But i think Stuckey can fill the leadership void that is if he's allowed to.
     
  3. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Okay I know you have a fetish for Chauncey and despise AI, but stop kidding yourself. We traded Chauncey and Dice for AI. We got Dice back. We traded Chauncey for AI straight up. We traded a borderline All Star for a former MVP. We did not lose talent.
     
  4. The Palace Artest

    The Palace Artest First Round Draft Pick

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    Whaa??
     
  5. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't think it has anything to do with leadership. They traded for Whitney when they already had Mariah. The pieces don't fit.
     
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    lol.

    Anyway, I don't think we're lacking leadership. I think the team became static, and these are the pains of change. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

    3 straight ECF losses, none of them can be blamed on Amir Johnson, Mo Evans, Carlos Delfino or Tony Delk.

    There is no nice way to say this, but the starters had a comfortable little clique going with Sheed playing outside, Chauncey and Rip putting up All-Star #s and Tay playing little brother.

    There is a reason McDyess didn't stay in Denver with Chauncey. There is a reason he returned to Detroit.

    The reason why we are struggling now, when it looked like we had it figured out a week ago, is that the old order is trying to re-establish itself.

    Joe's work is not done.
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    When I first read that, I read Pariah. Freudian slip.
     
  8. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    I disagree. We looked like we had it figured out a week ago because we were re-establishing a new lineup that would work better. Now we are taking step backs again to keep some players happy. If you want to call that re-establishing go ahead, but the only thing we are re-establishing is a poor strategy.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Re-establishing the "old order". The pre-Curry order where starters start because they are entitled to start, not because they deserve to start.

    Low and I have talked about this on the podcast. Curry was supposed to be tough and independent. So far, he has elevated and demoted Kwame and Amir to the starting lineup 2 times each, and we're not even half way through the season.

    When he has to change the lineup, he sacrifices Amir or Kwame. Not a starter who is sucking. No sir.

    The Pistons will not be able to achieve anything, until the age of entitlement comes to an end.
     
  10. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    The organization has lost (an unrealistic) consensus building (more incremental that one would like to think) that could no longer sustain itself. JD played the business side (his first responsibility), because the shared culture was no longer being produced. Residual rewards (playoff records) can hide talent that has lost purpose and motivation. Ben and CB are now gone and more to come.

    The worst thing for Stuckey is too start thinking about being the leader. He has to developed the fine art of sharing and that may (or may not) eventually show up.
     
  11. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Once you calm down, you can be quite good.
     
  12. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Leadership starts at the top and we are missing that on the bench with a rookie coach who is lacking the necessary skills to motivate, mentor and direct his players.

    On the floor no wants to step up and be the leader. There is not even a bonafide go to player that we can trust. AI misses a jumper to win a game last night and vs the Blazers last week and Rip misses one tonight. Lost 3 out of 4 close games and we had no real go to guy (NO Mr BS) to make the shots and key plays down the stetch...in fact we can't rely on them to even hit FT's

    Anybody see the end of the Spurs-Lakers game where both Duncan and Kobe stepped up to both hit key buckets in the last 90 seconds. We need a star we can count on, not one that does not know his role here because he is on loan or he is misses his BFF

    Stuckey will need to step up to be that person instead of deferring to our oldskool vets...
     
  13. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    We can trade whoever we want, but I have a feeling the problems we are facing right now will stay.

    We got rid of Brown because he was a "bad man" and did not make use of the teams offensive abilities.

    We got worse.

    We lost Ben because he was not worth keeping for the price. He was in decline anyways and it wouldn't be that big of a loss.

    We got a lot worse.

    We got rid of Flip because we could not get out of the ECF.

    So far we got worse.

    We trade Chauncey because he was complacent.

    So far we got worse and Denver got better.

    The pattern will continue...
     
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    We traded Chauncey because he was in the way of the development of Stuckey and could fetch the highest value of all of the starters.

    Denver blows. I'm tired of hearing about the McNuggNuts. Didn't we just beat them, on the road, short handed, in crunch time?

    This team is undergoing a culture change. They haven't been going to work since the title. To do that, old pieces have to be demoted or moved.
     
  15. max

    max All-Star

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    Haning onto an aging core was not going to get it done this year.

    Tell you one thing - I would take Stucky right now over CB. Stucky is just beginning a promising career wheras CB is just finishing up his prime years. Its one of those things where if we would have kept CB then I don't think Stucky would have settled for being #2 for the next 3 or so years.

    The patteren I see is the team falling back into its old ways once Sheed and Rip came back. Curry went from a coach of the year candidate to someone who does not know how to manage his talent. Or is it the talent that does not want to be managed?

    At any rate - perhaps we are reading too much into the past 48 hours. Two games that we should have won but 1 was a OT loss and the other by 2 points. If Prince hit that stupid tech we would have won last night and everything would have looked rosy again.
     
  16. AI IS GOD

    AI IS GOD Second Round Draft Pick

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    denver is nothing, all what they do is beat the weak teams. They cant beat elite teams.And they lost important ones of them straight up blowouts(san antonio, lakers, ..) So stop the chauncey fetish love..

    they are 9 - 12 vs teams above .500. which includes 3 wins vs dallas(who probably will miss playoffs), san antonio without parker ginobili, miami heat...

    They will lose in first round yet again..
     
  17. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Stuckey could play just as much behind Chauncey as he does with AI on the team. We basically had a 3 guard rotation with a little bit of AA mixed in. I am almost sure he could of had 30 mpg with Chauncey because our guard rotation is not very big.

    We also beat that Denver team without Carmelo Anthony who is >than Rip and Sheed combined the way those 2 have played so far. No doubt in my mind Denver is better than us right now. I don't think that will last, but right now you have to hand it them.

    We have moved old pieces, but we still have the same problems. One of those problems is making the same problems over and over again. So far no moves in free agency, coaching hiring, or trading players has changed that. We can't just trade everyone on the team. A culture change takes an effort and I don't see that. Curry was supposed to bring a culture change, but it looks like he is rebuilding the same poor culture that has recently hurt us. Trading players constantly won't work it will take an effort from the players we have right now.
     
  18. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    But maybe MC has given to his ballers a chance to figure things out after Bupbup trade? Everyone relied earlier on Bupbup's playmaking skills and now MC tells to his players: throne is vacant, who wants it? You, AI? It is yours, Sheed? Rip, anyone?

    Maybe not losses aren't those what saddens MC worst but the fact that his vets (plus) AI have not been able to take command in spite of fact that they have not only played many games but many minutes per game.

    I can VERY SAFELY bet that both Dumars and Curry expected MUCH more from vets than their current production...


    The most reliable player has been Stuckey, not any seasoned vet. That's the end, man.
     
  19. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    I don't care about the loss. I care about us making the same mistakes which caused us to lose.
     
  20. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Or Maxiell. DNP tonight for Max, Kwame, Bynum, Herrmann, Sharpe, and Acker + we have an empty roster spot.

    Of course I'm not advocating that they all play, but the yo yo with the young big men is not ideal.
     

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