Minnesota East

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Am I the only one who gets this vibe?

    We hire Flip to coach the team, and the next thing you know, Chauncey Billups starts putting up Terrell Brandon numbers.

    In the first year, we bring in a former Saunders player in Maurice Evans. This year, it's ex-Wolf, Ronald Dupree (who never played for Flip).

    Then we sign Nazr Mohammed, the guy who lost his job in San Antonio to former Minnesota Center Rasho Nesterovic.

    Of course the Pistons and Wolves share a D-League affiliation through the Sioux Falls Skyforce starting this season.

    Flip promises more Minnesota style zone defense in 2006/7.

    And now, we have invited Rick Rickert to training camp. Rickert was a Wolves draft pick in 2003.

    Now Rickert may be the more accomplished Pro, but from what I saw of the Summer League, Cheikh Samb has loads more upside and would probably benefit from D-League assignment with Amir Johnson or Will Blalock.

    I also turned up in my surfing today that the Wolves lost to Shaq's Lakers in 2004, 4-2, with the exact same series games won and lost as the Pistons to the Heat in 2006. They won games 2 and 5.

    Oh, and one more nugget. If this Wolverization continues, I guarantee that Nazr Mohammed will have a very mediocore season. The odds are against him, as Flip has traditionally gotten little from the center position, with only one double digit scorer in his ten years coaching the Wolves (2 half seasons, really 9 total seasons worth of games).

    That center was Rasho in 2003, scoring 11.2 points and grabbing 6.5 boards per game. Needless to say, it was a contract year...

    How is that for irony? Our declining center was actually the best that Saunders has ever had, and his #s went backwards... But I digress...

    I'm not damning Flip. I'm curious to know if Kevin McHale is finally getting the last laugh.

    I like it much better when we had Gar Heard and Alex Acker. At least they had ties to the Phoenix team that played the Greatest Game Ever. Acker was coached in college by Paul Westphal.

    Now there is a guy looking for a job, and as far as I know, he's got ZERO ties to the Timberwolves organization...
  2. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    The Wolves couldn't get it done with Garnett, Sprewell, and Casell. Look at what Sam has done to lift the Clippers out of the cellar. Garnett has been the league MVP a million times. And despite what you think about Spree's antics, dude can ball. So either they lacked a good game plan, motivation, or team chemistry. All of those fall under "coaches responsibility"

    Of course, in defense of the Center position, they did have Olowakandi. That guy may have the lowest on court BBall IQ I have ever witnessed.

    Going to be an interesting season, thats for sure.
  3. easybuckets

    easybuckets First Round Draft Pick

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    lets go for it then.. Lets trade the whole team for K.G.
  4. max

    max All-Star

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    I would say Minnesota is the wrong model to be following.

    Interesing coincidences. Its not uncommon for coaches to lobby for their x-players since they already know what they are about.

    I would not give the Flip reign much more than next season, unless something really good happends.

    Fired so many coaches and Davison paid out 12 mil last year to LB and Flip. Probably felt like they had to give Flip on more year. If things get ugly though then he probably will not see April with our team.
  5. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    A couple significant differences...
    The Wolves model was to pay a huge salary and surround him with low priced talent (minus Wally)...
    The other big difference was the substancial penalties paid for the Joe Smith Fiasco... this team had to try to succeed with no cap $'s and no draft picks... I'd say Flips's teams exceeded expectations considering the circumstances.
    Personally I'm pretty burnt out on the Flip bashing.... No one guy is responsible for coming up short.
  6. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    Same starters and an equivalent bench to what LB had...sorry...Flip is Flip.

    I've asked the question a dozen times...does anyone remember a good game decision or play call Flip made last season?
  7. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    yeah, laughing all the way to another missed playoffs. :P

    you add up a lot of interesting pieces to help define us as a timberwolves east, but let me ask you this. if any one of those players weren't here, you would still relate us to a wolves east, correct? but if flip wasn't here, the comparison would never have been made. therefore, this is all about flip and nobody else.

    i'm going to give him a minor chance to redeem himself, but if he was fired mid-season i wouldn't shed a tear for the guy.
  8. aurora

    aurora Bench Warmer

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    No. He can't think on his feet. He's very conservative when it comes to risk-taking. He's not suited to the playoffs, where a coach has to manage and use the urgency factor as a motivator. That kind of caution begins to feel and look like playing not to lose, which we know does not work in any athletic endeavor ever, even croquet. I hope he can change his stripes this season and take some risks (play the bench, in-game adjustments), but frankly after 11 years doing this, he ain't going to change that much. For crying out loud, he doesn't even run a good play coming out of a time out.

    merc, as far as being tired of Flip-bashing, I don't know what to say. I think it'll get a lot worse before it's over, unless he wins a ship. I myself am really tired of Ben hating, but I just try to scroll by it if it upsets me. Seriously I have a small list of people who I know always say the meanest stuff about Ben, and I just scroll on by. I've found that's the best thing to do, considering that this is supposed to be a fun way to share our interest and obsess about our Pistons. What would we do without each other? I know my family is so glad that I can write on this board! They don't have to listen to me go on and on about pure point vs. combo guards, Delfino's playing time dramas, and whether I should still get a Ben jersey or not.:) I have you guys for all that!!!:nod:
  9. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    My initialtake on Flip was very positive and I really thought that he could get the job done, the minnesota fiasco was just a fluke and certainly could not happen in detroit with seasoned veterans.

    I also thought Flip would be the second coming of Phil Jackson in his chicago bulls days (triangle offense/versus Flip's offense). I am not giving up on Flip just yet. I will give him another year, when, not if, the pistons get to the ECF and Flip exhibits poor coaching including poor rotations, allowing the players to dictate how much they will play and when they will play, pull the plug Joe.

    Flip even admitted that he allowed the players entirely too much freedom which equates to poor leadership. He has to set the example and the tone this year for sure.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    This isn't a thread about (boo or YAY!) Flip. This is about the Wolverization of the Pistons. That I am entirely too uncomfortable with bringing Rickert to camp, and re-signing Ronald Dupree.

    That I am concerned about playing zone, and find it curious that our playoff exit in the ECF matches the Wolves exit in the 2004 WCF.

    Am I crazy? Do you see other similarities?

    If you see it too, can you see a rationale? Toronto is emulating the Suns, and it all seems very impressive externally. I'm concerned that emulating the Wolves will not yield the same kind of results.

    I'm talking about the moves Joe is making, the way the power structure in the locker room has been adapting, you name it. It's bigger than Flip, and yes he's a large part, but every good conspiracy theory needs unknown purposes, and well disguised means. That's what I am trying to discuss.

    Please don't waste it downing or defending Flip. That was never the intention. Heck, I'm endorsing Westphal because he has no known (to me) Wolves ties. That I think he is a better coach wasn't the point being made.
  11. webz

    webz All-Star Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    you didn't need to explain it, i saw the similarities, but there were many very small similarities and one big glaring similarity from the timberwolves era. it looks like everyone else recognised that one big similarity too roscoe.

    i don't exactly see the re-signing of dupree to be the defining moment of this team. good work on the research though.
  12. DirtyMoney

    DirtyMoney First Round Draft Pick

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    Chauncey and the rest of the team said it didn't matter who the coach was. They knew eachother too well and was too hungry to fall apart. They wanted to prove they could win without LB. Now they are All Stars, but bear no rings. Don't blame flip for the over cockiness. Please don't forget the ref's.
  13. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Best record in Pistons history with the same group... but that's only because of the players,... when it's a bad thing it's only Flip....
    It has to be a combination of bad play and coaching mistakes.... but the players seem to be getting a free pass for their crappy play (likely 90/10 blame on Flip in this forum).
    Sheed's injury should also be considered a major factor.
  14. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Yeah, no one ever mentions Sheed's ankle. Myself included. I am also starting to wonder about some of the locker room chemistry. I wonder if Ben had made his decision much earlier in the season, and just like the Wolves of '04, the team had internal strife with a player or players worrying about trying to feed their families.

    I guess we will really know about this theory if Joe packages Delfino and Davis and picks up Hoiberg, Szerbiak, or... gasp! Spreewell. :P
  15. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    A little collusion amongst friends? Let me know when we break the legal line.
    It's not unusal. Riles was very comfortable working with or just working L.A.
    Magic keeps coming back. Look for the Knicks to try and get some!
    Hitting up the Purrs for Nazz, I can dig it.
    But what's the best thing we could do?
    Who could we work for a playa? At little expense to us.
    CB for Nash straight up. S&T
    Negatory!
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    Micro - Sorry besides the Billups/Flip tie this thread is a stretch.

    Mohamed has Flip ties because the guy who beat him out in SAN played for Flip?

    Dumpree/and Rickert (the guy who I had to start a new instance of the site so I could look up his name) have Flip ties.
    If Dup played more than 200 mins or Rickert makes the squad then I will buy you a case of beer or 1lb of coffee.

    Evans jump started his career with SAC 2 seasons ago. He played a total of 45 mins under Flip in his 1st season.

    Flip does love the zone. He was a pioneer of the zone. One of the 1st coaches to heavily use this technology when it ist came out. Now with Ben gone we all better get used to seeing more of it. Thats Flip. Not a Minnesota thing.
  17. Superstarov

    Superstarov First Round Draft Pick

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    The zone has been around ever since there were poor defenders. The NBA only recently allowed teams to use it.

    Flip is hardly a pioneer.
  18. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Perhaps if Ben would have bought into some of Flip's defensive philosophies, the Pistons would have won the Championship. Playing Shaq one-on-one and getting dunked on all of the time certainly wasn't a very successful strategy.
  19. max

    max All-Star

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    He was one of the 1st to jump on it and find ways to start using it upon legalization. Does not matter when it was invented as Coaches do not think about ways to use something that they cannot use so for all practicle purposes it was introduced recently. We are talking innovation here not invention.
  20. Robert Michael

    Robert Michael First Round Draft Pick

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    Re: Minnesota East--- Or The Flipistons

    teams take on the characteristics of their coaches. Flip is a good coach who hasn't been able to win big in the playoffs.

    I think his schemes and coaching was one of the major reason our players played poorly.

    Too many quick jumpers, bad transition defense and rotations, and stagnant movement on offense. Flip's teams get bounced every year from the playoffs for the same reason.

    Hopefully we don't become the Flipistons.

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