Mr Big Ego needs to go

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by theWORM, Jun 19, 2008.

  1. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    well i'd say he'd be the 4th best player on the celtics, but put him on the lakers and I think we have a series worth discussing....

    Is he a top 3 point guard? nope but he's a ton better them most teams in the league can say they have, and unless people can guarentee that stuckey is ready for 40 mins a night of great play a night in the regular season and the playoffs were getting a bit ahead of ourselves in trading him away for the sake of getting rid of him.

    If currey can rein him in an ride him like Brown did, I am comfy with all our starters remaining.... and if there being outplayed by a younger bench player they get the hook.... i think that switch that they have worked to get rid of will disapear.... sitting on the bench for lazy play I bet will fix a few things....
     
  2. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Your continual posting of reasonable examples is really staring to cause problems for my world view.
     
  3. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    Stuckey missed what, a quarter of all regular season games? It all depends on how you manipulate statistics.
    :hoops:
     
  4. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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  5. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    yeah, keep it up
    -
    PGs don't grow on trees.
    I don't want to regress to the Cheeser days.
    But if Chaunc is moved you can be sure JD will get something excellent.
     
  6. NYPistonFan729

    NYPistonFan729 Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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  7. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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  8. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    I like this post....Agree with it wholeheartedly...Thanks for sharing...
     
  9. max

    max All-Star

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  10. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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  11. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Yes, ok, CB may not be our PG of the future, but I don't want to trade him just yet. And I'm gonna show him love.

    Firstly, he is pretty versatile. As DBA said, his strengths are that he can abuse any PG in the league 1-on-1. And if the other team switches a bigger player onto him then that opens up things for other guys. He is a mismatch.

    He has excellent range. Some believe he does not hit the 3 as regularly or consistently as he used to but the numbers don't show that. This season he shot 40.1% and 1.8 makes per game from downtown. His career averages are 38.5% and 1.7. His overall FG% was a career best 44.8%.

    He is efficient. This season CB was 46th in league scoring, his average 17.0ppg. He did this while only attempting 11.2 shots per game. No player in the league averaged more points on less shots. Not only that, 19 players averaged less whilst taking more shots. To find the next guy who averaged less shots you have to go down to Odom at 14.2ppg on 10.3 shots.
    He doesn't turn the ball over. He averages 2.1 TO per game. 13 other PG's average more TO's. NONE who average less TO's average more minutes.

    He is clutch. This doesn't just mean hitting the game winning jumper. We all remember the times Billups took a stupid long 3 at the buzzer and missed, but how many of us remember the 4 or 6 straight FT's he hit to seal a win that was still in doubt? No other PG makes more FT's than CB at 5.1 and he hit them at a 91.8% clip.

    Now I know the guy isn't perfect and I'm not giving him a free pass for the failure of these guys to get to the finals. All I'm saying is I don't believe we should get rid of Billups unless we get another PG back, and as Joe said, what's the point of making lateral changes? And who out there would you say is a better PG? Paul and Nash are the only 2 definites. You could make a case for Deron Williams and Baron Davis. That's about it. And the likelihood of getting one of those 4? Not very. Before you get all AI on me, he is not a PG and he is at the end of his career. It is questionable whether he is a better player than Billups. That would constitute a lateral move. And if you believe an AI/Stuckey backcourt would work, where does that leave Rip?

    As for Stuckey, I don't believe he is ready to assume lone PG responsibilities. RS has great abilities to break down defenses and run fast breaks, far exceeding those of Billups.
    However, he does not have the shooting range Billups does, nor the consistency to hit the mid-range jumper. And seeing the Lakers tactics of playing off Rondo scared me a little bit, because teams would figure out to do the same thing to Stuckey and make him a jump shooter, thus negating his strengths. The next thing for Stuckey is develop a consistent mid-range shot and at least be able to knock down a 3 on occasion. Then I will be comfortable handing the reigns over.
     
  12. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    At last, a constructive and intelligent defense of keeping Billups. That's how its done. Not the %%%%%ing that's been posted, all emotional like Lamar Odom after getting punked by Garnett and Perkins towards the end of game 6!

    I would add that while the numbers ATM may support Billups' case to remain, and Stuckey is not ready to make that leap, and no, we shouldn't trade Billups for a package that does not move us forward, the whole point of starting this thread is to demonstrate that Billups has a state of mind that is not conducive to having a hungry, gritty, underdog mentality, championship wining team.

    My quotes on the first page and the last one regarding "playing a big part in bringing home the gold", when taken in isolation, may not mean much, but when brought together and considered in a shared context, illustrate this very point.

    I recall Chuck Daly writing on why Dantley was traded. He explained that Dantley had lost something. It was hardly perceptible. He just didn't seem to get up and down the court quite as fast. You would not have known unless you were watching him game after game over the course of a couple of seasons. He was just starting to slip. Either Billups is in that boat, or it has already left port a while back.

    Now, maybe he is worth keeping, given he can keep on playing at a highish level, and to school Stuckey? I liken his situation to Joe Dumars towards the end of his career. The big difference? Dumars was a hands down leader. He set the tone in the locker room. No cockiness. No arrogance. Just a hard work get it done mentality. He also had a pure stroke and played within his limitations as he was aging. Unfortunately, Billups is not that kind of player, and is not that far off from being the "anti-Joe D" towards the end of their respective careers.

    So I'm hoping Joe can get some fair value back, including a solid PG to help Stuckey along the way (a fringe starter via trade or MLE would do), let Hamilton's leadership qualities shine through (no question who is the best and most consistent), and get the team's attitude where it needs to be for the Pistons to get back to the finals:

    No cockiness. No arrogance. Just a hard work get it done mentality.
     
  13. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    He is efficient. This season CB was 46th in league scoring, his average 17.0ppg. He did this while only attempting 11.2 shots per game. No player in the league averaged more points on less shots. Not only that, 19 players averaged less whilst taking more shots. To find the next guy who averaged less shots you have to go down to Odom at 14.2ppg on 10.3 shots.
    He doesn't turn the ball over. He averages 2.1 TO per game. 13 other PG's average more TO's. NONE who average less TO's average more minutes.
    [Quote Webz]
    -
    Deal with that ArmyG.
    -
    Worm, everything I hear is Bup-Bup is a solid, stand-up team guy. So, no way does he blow off Stuck. It takes a man with a big head to be that magmatic.
     
  14. Smoooth

    Smoooth First Round Draft Pick

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    I think Joe is just pulling off a "Kobe" move, no one's going to be traded.
     
  15. RipBillupsRJC

    RipBillupsRJC Second Round Draft Pick

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    Damn straight.:hungry:
     
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    Tater - Good pic, Party bus.

    yea its a tough call with CB it really is. Pistons were barly able to get out of the 1st round without him. So many failed attempts before him thats its hard to believe that Stucky will be the guy right off but maybe he will be.

    We all have our favorites. For me its Rip. I like him and hope we keep him but I would be open if the right trade was there.
     
  17. Smoooth

    Smoooth First Round Draft Pick

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    I wouldn't trade Rip at all, no other SG can match his type of caliber in the league right now.
     
  18. theWORM

    theWORM First Round Draft Pick

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    I think you will find Dantley's numbers were pretty good too right before he got traded. You could also say the same regarding numerous players right before they get traded. That's the point. Get as much value back as you can while he is still playing at a high level, if indeed you are wanting to take the team in another direction.

    I have deliberately not used the words "bad" or "cancer" or "lack of character" when talking about Billups. He is none of those things. And yes, I can't see him not being a good team mate in a personal sense. What I am saying is that the lack of urgency that defines this team is exemplified by Billups' words and his inconsistent play.

    As for pulling a "Kobe": Joe D don't blow no smoke.
     
  19. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    @The worm,

    Stuckey is even more inconsistent than billups.
     
  20. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Billups has always had that 'I've got a chip on my shoulder and I think I'm good' attitude, even before the 04 'ship. It's just he had no accolades to back it up.
    You also don't need to have an underdog mentality to win. Yes, this team's defining moment was when it was the underdog, but I don't think it's a necessary trait to have. Hunger is the point I look at more. Some guys get satisfied when they reach the pinnacle and rest on past success, others can continue to be hungry. (Jordan, Federer, Woods, Schumacher and others.) Maybe this team has hunger issues (not the Sprewell ones), but that's the GM's job to get rid of them. As fans it's hard for us to know. But I think Joe is one of those guys that if you didn't have it you'd be gone by now, so I'm guessing he is happy that CB is motivated enough. For sure he would have figured it out before last seasons new contract anyway.

    For a bit more perspective on PG's here are the salaries of some of the big name PG's in the league for next season (I put AI's in there as well):

    Iverson - 21.93
    Marbury - 21.93
    Kidd - 21.4
    B.Diddy - 17.18
    Bibby - 15.22
    Nash - 12.25
    Parker - 11.55
    Billups - 11.05
    A.Miller - 10
    Deron - 5.07
    Paul - 4.57

    I'd say his contract is quite reasonable for what he is giving us, so no problems there. We may all complain that CB has a big ego, but it wasn't big enough for him to not re-sign at that reasonable rate compared to inferior guys like Marbury, Kidd and Bibby, who all make loads more. I don't believe CB is a 'must get rid of him while he has value' guy. We have a team option for him at the end of 2010/11. Thats 3 more seasons at which point he will come off the books. If we all think Stuckey is the man waiting in the wings, then why are we stressed about getting someone back for CB while he has value?

    I just don't see Rip as a leader. He may be a co-captain but I just haven't seen anything from him that defines him as a leader. He is probably our best player, but I see him more as one of those guys who is just a player.
    I also have a lot of lasting images of him playing nervous in big-game situations, especially early in the 04 finals. Billups showed poise and set the tone right from Game 1, something a natural leader just does.
     

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