NBA Fan Evolution - Fan Eras

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by indiefan23, May 27, 2009.

  1. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Hey Pistons Forum guys... just finished part one of a two part article on the evolution of the fan. The first one details the 4 different fan eras with video clips giving examples of each. Check it out and if you like my stuff you should throw your email into the box and subscribe.

    Love to get some feedback: some of the most intelligent responses I've gotten have been from this forum. You can get it here:

    Full Court Pest: NBA Fan Evolution: Part 1 - Fan Eras
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Crap, lost a long post.

    There is an argument against the premise that the players are better.

    The game is much worse.

    The quality of NBA basketball was much higher in the 80s. It has progressively gone down since

    1. Expansion
    2. High Schoolers
    3. Salary Cap
    4. Jordan
    5. 3 Point shot

    *wildcard - officiating

    I'll give you, today's players benefit from scientific like efficiency, training, coaching etc. But the quality of the actual competition is not very good, and not getting any better.

    Now, I've seen this sort of paradigm before. Even though food processing and transportation gets better, food prices continue to rise. Likewise, I think as the players get better, the flaws in the game continue to become systemic. So even though the players get better, the game is overall getting worse. At least, that is my hypothesis.
  3. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Ah, I dunno. There are for sure lots of issues with the game and I don't really think the 60's era is on the same level, especially athletically, but that's not really what I was talking about in the article either. I'm more talking about the different eras of fans and how their perception is shaped by the way the game is played when they started to get involved.

    I think the peak of the NBA was in the 90's, specifically the early 90's (and late 80's) when everyone was still in their primes before they slowed down and retired. So maybe you are thinking of the same time.

    The way the game is called and how the talent has responded to it, its really difficult for me to really guage. I think there was a decline for about 5-8 years. Mabye from 1995-2003. But things changed with that crazy draft. And last years draft was nuts too. A few more good years and the NBA will be right back on track for another 10 years of great ball. I don't think anything is going to compare to the spark of 84/85/86/87 when basicly the best players of all time all joined the league. (minus bird/Magic who came a bit earlier to the party). I'm writing an article about Stern that covers those drafts in depth... its really insane what happened. Freak anomoly.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I was making the argument that while the individual players might be better, the overall game is much crappier to watch.

    So even if the players are better, they are playing a different style of what I like to call, BS ball, where you can't touch anyone, and superstars get non-stop foul calls with no contact.

    So to compare eras is very different. The players might have smoked and drank all summer between season back then, but whistle to whistle those guys played like warriors. These guys play like it is the WWE.
  5. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    I'd kind of agree with you. Although I think that late 80's early 90's was the peak of basketball. The talent is coming back now. I do like the new rules somewhat, I just don't like the spirit of them. All the suspensions and ticky tacks... just has to be a better way. I love good D but its gotta be in relation to people being able to compete against that D. Honestly, you know where I stand on bad boys 2, I just think those guy's defense was way too good for the league to handle. I could have watched them D up for days for that matter, kind of making me regret liking those new rulse too. :/

    Yea, I have no idea what to make of the new league. But the guys on those celtics teams didn't smoke in the off season, they would actually smoke butts at half time. ;0 I dunno, I just find it shocking. :)
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I don't understand that. Why is a premium placed on offense?

    Then, I have to ask the question, how come teams scored more points when the game was tougher?

    Today's game has some of the lowest scoring, as teams are now adjusted to the no hand check, and the foul calls slow the game to an overcommercialized snail crawl.

    Back in the day, you could watch a 100-99 defensive battle. Today a defensive battle is 82-78. I'm not seeing a better game.
  7. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    I'm one who sees beauty in a defensive game. Of course, maybe I am biased cause of my Piston upbringing. Anyways. The game today is a joke. The play that stands out the most in the playoffs to me is Lebron charging like an undisciplined bull towards 4 defenders. The defender that Lebron ran into was literally running with his back to Lebron, trying to run away from him so he wouldn't be called for another foul. Unfortunately Lebron ran into his back, and the poor defender was called for a foul. How ridiculous is that?

    Another one was this game where this guy stole the ball from the three point line he was defending, and ran down the court, leaping into the air, and dunking it, with the home crowd going wild. The problem was he only dribbled the ball twice the whole time down the court. I immediately yelled out are you kidding me? I then rewound it and watched it in slomo to make sure I wasn't wrong. Sure enough, he bounced once between his defensive three point line and midcourt, once between midcourt and the other three point line, took three steps inside the three point line for a layup. That's not basketball. That's traveling.
  8. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Pretty ridiculous, however you are bias being raised on Deeeetroit basketball. Not that you're brainwashed, but more that the Pistons did play good defense... there are lots of teams in the past however who had low scores but played pretty crappy defense. Teams with failing athleticism slow the game down and break the flow of the game as they try to bring the faster team down to their level of athleticism. Honestly, this is sort of how I've always felt the Spurs played D. I've always thought it was ugly.

    There was nothing unathletic about the Pistons though. They played D fast and athletically. How many timed did you see Tayshaun Prince full out sprint down the court to block a shot on a player who thought he had a totally open fast break? Or dudes jumping out to contest?

    Yea, thats lame. Course they've not really called travels for years. I dunno, I think they've just got to make a stand here. Honestly, I love spectacular plays and if taking an extra step makes those happen, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with them only using 2 steps too though. Either call travels at 2 steps or say you've got two steps and 3 can be used to shoot. Like I said, I don't care which, but once you decide just make it totally consistant, and call every single travel possible.

    Lastly, it is pretty tough on the refs for that one. In real time its pretty difficult to tell the difference between a hop step and a travel cuz so much is going on. Does the ball hit his hand before he leaves his foot? Lebron travels a LOT though. Something has to be done.
  9. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Its a bit of a mirage. But I do get totally excited by last second heroics to win games and the like. That 3 by Lebron the other night, honestly, that was pure drama wheter the league has screwed up its rules or not.

    Not in the 90's, but yep in the 80's. They played a much faster pace. There was a just a lot more talent in the league then I think. People didn't play D cuz they lacked skill as much as they did it to win.

    Yep, I totally agree there. Remember that Warriors/Mavs series? That was a bloody good defensive match up to watch. The way the Warriors were playing defense was totally amazing, especially since they were not known for it. And it helped them win. I think more teams need to learn that playing defesne and slowing down the game are not the same thing.slowing down the game are not always the
  10. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Contract 4 teams and spread those players around the remaining teams in the L and the scoring can go back to what it was in the 80's.

    Teams didn't not play defense then, teams were deeper and did not start guys who couldn't shoot and/or score. There is only so much defense you can play when teams could move the ball and didn't have dead ends taking up spots on the court.

    Danny Ainge was the 5th scoring option for the 80's Celtics and would be # 2 if he played for CLE today.
  11. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Yea, but those celtics were one of the best teams of all time. Cleveland is no where near that status. They live and die by one ridiculous superstar. If you took the Clippers of the 80's they don't really have anyone special. Even good teams too...BJ Armstrong is not any kind of standout player today yet he was 3'rd scoring option on the Bulls teams. I don't think talent is as good now, but its gotten a whole heck of a lot better then say, 1999 or 2000 when the league became seriously watered down and half the league was rebuilding.
  12. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    CLE was the leagues best team this year and in 1986 so were the Celtics.

    BJ Armstrong was post expansion.

    The Clippers won 12 games in 86 and had a starting 5 of Mike Woodson, Marques Johnson, Michael Cage, Cornbread Maxwell and Larry Drew.

    This year Sacto was the L's worst team and started Beno Udrich, Kevin Martin, Jason Thompson, Spencer Hawes and Francisco Garcia.

    I think I'd take the Clippers if they were to play one another. Mike Cage and Cedric Maxwell would be in the top half of front court duos if they played now.
  13. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    All good points. However the 86 Celtics best team is way, way beyond lebron's. Mchale/Parish/Ainge/Walton are 4 of the best to ever play. Oh, and BJ was actually pre expansion as teh Bulls let him go in the expansion draft. He was their third option.

    Either way, I think that talent in the league exploded in the 80's and peaked in the early 90's anyway, so its not like we disagree. I don't think thats why they scored more. They played more of a running game and didn't slow it down so much. Pace declining has been a steady trend no matter what talent was in the game. Actually, kind of the reverse. When talent peaked they started playing the slowest pace ever. I wonder why that is.
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Slowing the game down is about precision. It's about keeping the game within striking range. It's not hard to pull of an 8-0 run, but there are very few 20-0 runs.

    I don't think the talent peaked earlier. You have more people playing all around the world. You have superior training, superior coaching, and fantastic sports science for medicine and nutrition.

    No, today's players are definitely better. They work a lot harder on their games, and they are almost all built like tanks.

    I think that the game has changed for the reasons I mentioned before, and even though the players are getting better, the game is declining in return.
  15. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    How can that be, the Bulls won their first title in 1991 and the Heat and Hornets joined the L in 88-89 and the Magic and T-Wolves in 89-90?

    The Bulls let him go prior to Vancouver and Toronto joining, I'm guessing.

    Until I looked this stuff up I hadn't realized how many teams have joined the NBA recently. No wonder the quality of play has gone down.

    Take 6 teams out of the league and the remaining teams would be stacked. No one played 1 on 1 or 1 on 5 back in the 80's to early 90's which meant players knew how to move without the ball and pass.

    People point to the competition as the reason why the Dream Team was so dominant, but to me they'd do just about as well now. That team knew how to play with other good to great players. It was expected of them.

    Hand checks are only effective against a dribbler, it doesn't work when you cut and pass the ball. One guy per team today dominates the ball and we marvel at how many more triple doubles or 40 point games they got than Magic. LeBron and D Wade are the same to me as Mark McGuire and Sam Sosa.
  16. indiefan23

    indiefan23 First Round Draft Pick

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    Ohhhhh... that expansion. ;0 Heh. Well, honestly the pool of people who play ball was expanding like mad then after the NBA grew exponentially during the 80's. That little bit of expansion but I don't think it really compares to going from 9 to 24 teams in 10 years. Really the 80's were doing the same thing. And I don't think the drop in play really came from expansion. It was just luck... things go in cycles. A generation of amazing players all hit the end of their primes at once, all the best franchises in th league were rebuilding and there were a bunch of crummy drafts after 20 years of solid ones.

    That was the best team ever in the prime of the strongest era. Yep.

    Thats not true at all. Hand checks on a cutter are going to slow him down. And its not just hand checks its the defense was just so much more intense. 60's era players didn't even really box out compared to the 90's knicks/heat who were body checking guys as tey went into the lane. Its not the same.

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