Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, May 23, 2006.
Please vote on an adequate replacement for
"Goin' to Work"
I'm underimpressed with Flips Offensive Genius. We've been shooting a horrible %, have been settling for the outside shot, and have no chemistry when the subs come in (which is almost never, but that's a whole other topic).
This is all a direct result of the starters being overworked over the course of the season (and the Cavs series). The shooting % sucks because the starters legs are tired, and all of the shots are coming up short. The subs don't have chemistry because *gasp* they don't play enough to get it. They were starting to get some chemistry when Delk came to town, but Flip decided they should play 2 minutes a game in the playoffs. And now they forgot how to play again.
Flip is far from a genius of anything. If you're going to kill your starters all year and overwork them, you had better play an inside game. Lots of minutes + perimeter shots = recipe for disaster.
Back to that again. Why is it that guys like Duncan, Wade, Nash, Nowitzki,etc... can play more mins than our Piston starters and you never hear them using fatigue as an excuse?
How can our guys average anywhere from 30-60th place in total mins played per game during the season and we always want to fall back on the overworked angle?
I voted for Too Good to Play Hard.
My bro and I talked about this very topic during the game. The Pistons weren't losing by many points, but it seemed clear that they would lose. And I realized I didn't care.
"Why don't I care?" I wondered. And it dawned on me:
These guys don't go to work any more.
In fairness, they all play hard in spurts. And Ben will always be goin' to work, imo, no matter which team he plays for. but it's the scrappy heart working as a unit that made this team great back under Cola's reign. and I miss those teams dearly. they played with purpose.
perhaps all teams become stagnant over time. i don't know.
slightly OT, i do think a team as "chill" as the Pistons needs a coach with some fire. ying for yang.
I think the scenario is that those other guys are the go to men on their squads and normally the ONLY ones to average the 40+ mins. We had all five averaging 34-38 mins and now at least 3 of them over 40 in the playoffs. The bench and starters never played together long enough to form a cohesive unit. Example if we played 1-2 starters with 3-4 bench players, we occassionally held on to the lead for a few moments until we waivered and Flip would then close out the game with starters again, once again leaving the bench with no confidence,
I believe playing Delfino more would have not only given him confidence and consistency, but he could have been that unknown x-factor.
Win or lose this series or the championship, will ask questions as to why Darko was never developed by Flip especially after we saw some hint of future as he close down the season in Orlando. Joe will also be second guessed as how we went into battle with no proven bench even though it was exposed as early as February. Dice, Hunter Delfino, and Evans dig not scare anyone. We hear how that Al Harrington was available early in the seaons for Dorko and Chucky A cleared his schedule for a possible ring with the Pistons. Hindsight is 20-20, but I betcha he would given us more offensive punch and pg effectiveness than the seldom used Delk.. Also I still question Joe today why he didn't press for Jameer Nelson in the Darko/Arroyo/Cato trade? He could have thrown in Acker or Mo for that penetrater in Nelson, as we sure don't have one ala, the Parker, Nash, Terry, Ford, or Wade.
I couldn't decide between Looking for Desire and Too Good to Play Hard, so I picked 'em both.
Sometimes (often) they do seem complacent (Too Good to Play Hard); but there are definitely times when some of our players (e.g. Sheed) just don't bring it at all (Looking for Desire).
Does this team really want a second championship? It seems a ridiculous question, but I wonder sometimes....
After game 5 of the Cavs series, I posted on here that my faith was as strong as ever and we would win in 7. At the same time, I knew that if we did lose, I wouldn't feel bad about it, because when it looks to me like the team doesn't care as much as they should, then I don't care either.
Contrast this team's overall demeanour with the '88 crew that barely lost to the Lake Show in the dying seconds of game 7. Those guys were doing absolutely everything they could to win that series and they still came up short. Thwarted desire is painful -- just ask Zeke or 'Beer -- but it's something to be proud of to know that you gave 100% effort. There's no shame in losing when you know you tried your best.
I'm just not getting the same vibe of passion from this crew right now, and it makes me somewhat ambivalent about the entire campaign. I don't know what the problem is. Maybe they've gotten accustomed to having a taskmaster on the bench after RC and LB, and Flip's (exceedingly) laid back style isn't working for them. They seem kind of directionless as often as not, and against a strong, experienced, and well-coached Heat squad, that simply may not be enough.
Even in defeat as in '03 or '05, this team used to be all about rolling up their sleeves and Goin' to Work. Now it seems to be about putting in senior executive hours, and on an irregular basis at that.
Guys playing an inside game is tougher than settling for jumpers. So if the fatigue excuse is being offered/discussed the first thing that would disappear is the inside game. Don't understand the lack of bench time.
I agree with everything ... except the part about Ben. Two minutes into the game, he was jogging down court with his back to the ball and let Jason Williams run right by him for a layup.
Guarantee you that if we had a tough coach, there'd be more complaining from fans than there is now -- not to mention more from the players. Everyone would be talking about locker room mutinies and championship players being pushed out of town.
Win or lose, the sense of entitlement is getting hard to keep under control. We'll find out just how much nerve Joe has this summer, because this team needs some unpopular changes.
I choose none of the above. The Pistons simply know how good they are and understand they can win more often by remaining composed than by running around like their hair is on fire.
It works doesn't it?
I'mma still have faith to the team like you do and I also sense that good things could coming to the end earlier than anticipated like the last champion.
We have live game this morning and the game ain't looked like what Pistons game was. May be something is cokking. I don't know.
looking for darko
i put looking for darko. i think it's really starting to show that ben is a liability. cleveland decides not to check him and clog up the paint it hurt us. miami is now following the same game plan. miami will also foul ben and it will hurt us too. darko was that big that could make shaq play on the defensive end instead or resting. darko also could play shaq straight up for 15 minutes until he fouled out. the way to play shaq isn't to battle with him it's to tire him out. you can't match his strength. also even if darko had fouled j williams darko would have at least went for the blocks. teams know that when darko is in the game there will be no free layups he's going to either snuff / alter your shot or foul you. ben and sheed are playing like they are scared to get into foul trouble.
it all doesn't matter because flip wouldn't put him into the game anyway. mcdyess is that offensive threat that we can use and flip won't put him in and he's better than darko.
i couldn't vote for any of these alternatives, though I can see how some of them make sense to some people.
i certainly do think the issue is a mental or, more precisely, psychological one. but i'm starting to think the ups and downs and lapses come from how focused the Pistons have been (since the end of last June actually) on "THE TITLE". Everything has been about the next GAME 7 BEING AT THE PALACE AND WINNING IT.
Sometimes when you get fixated on a long-term goal, you lose sight of the fact that reaching that destination consists of many tiny (and not immediately rewarding, let alone spectacular or glorious) steps along the way. Moreover, in formulating the goal in terms of "game 7 being at the palace" the Pistons might have inadvertently missed the point: the point would be not to even need Game 7 at the Palace because you've already taken care of business ahead of time.
I used to think they got bored when things got easy. That might still be true sometimes. But I think the case is that they are so caught up with winning the championship as all that matters that they take their eyes off the step that is right in front of them. That would explain why they are so "miraculously" resilient. The losses or poor performances remind them that they winning the title is actually made up of winning a bunch of games that are right in front of them; not just winning game 7 of the finals.
It certainly doesn't make them easy to watch. And there's always the danger that the moment they refocus and realize they need to win the one right in front of them they run into some guy on a tear, or their own shots rim out, or another team will be clicking on all cylinders. But I don't share what I sense is a kind of disappointment and even disdain for the team for having lost desire or become fat and happy. They aren't underdogs, they aren't just happy to be in the playoffs, or the 2nd round, or even the conference finals. Maybe they should be, ideally, but that doesn't really seem realistic or even honest. They've been saying it all year, we fans have been saying it all year: "the only thing that matters is a championship. anything less would be a disappointment." I think they are playing exactly like anybody would who has such a drastically unbalanced fixation.
What they need to pull through is to remember that championships are won one series at a time, one game at a time, one minute at a time, one cut, one pass, one stop, one board at a time. I'm guessing they'll only remember that when losses force that reminder upon them.
I can't believe no one called out, or voted for "Waiting for Godot".
Re: looking for darko
Man, you are relentless. But I ain't mad at you.
As a matter of fact I agree with you about many of the problems you cite with Ben on offense. I also think you hit the nail on the head about Sheed and Ben allowing layups to avoid foul trouble, at least early in the game.
Beckett is so-o-o-o outre. Prince's performance last night would have made "Waiting for Lefty" a viable poll option.
forgive my ignorance but what is godot?
good question: Godot, a character who never appears in a play by Samuel Beckett
Here's a decent summary:
It's interesting, these guys are veterans and were supposedly capable of "coaching themselves". Clearly that isn't true. Flip is not a motivator or someone that is going to hold his players accountable. There wasn't any indication the players would get so full of themselves. Judging from the last 2 years, these guys went to work, knew their roles and executed. But take the ass-kicking LB out of the picture and the guys are slacking off.
Joe had no way to know this, and it isn't Flip's fault. There are positives and negatives to different methods of coaching. This method just doesn't work with the players we have.
It's the same problem the lions and tigers had. Tigers had the skill, they now have the manager and are best in the league.
Considering our starting 5 is locked up for the most part... the coach has to go.
There is no fatigue. The worst team in the league in points in the paint has no right to complain about fatigue.
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