Nice Article About Lb 4 Lb

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by buddahfan, Apr 5, 2006.

  1. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Buddhafan,

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  3. Caliban

    Caliban First Round Draft Pick

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    Man was he dreamin'!
     
  4. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Suffer, NY fan Suffer

    Nothing makes me happier than knowing NY fan is suffering.
    Oh, and I love the plentiful NY media bellyacheing and crying out loud.
    Cry you noisey, nosey, lifeless, mercenaries. Cry like a hungry baby.
    And...
    SUFFER ! :nod:
     
  5. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    "I've made every team I ever coached better, every one. Look, I've been coaching how many years? I never left a team in worse shape than I got it. Not one. Now think about that. Think about me and think about the guy who's talking. I never left a team in worse shape. Never asked anything of my players any different than I'm doing right now. Think about that. Think about that. So the bottom line is, I want us to rebound, defend, share the ball, play hard. That's all. If you can't do that, if that's not important enough to you, it's not on me. It's not on me."
    Larry Brown

    NY Knicks 2003/2004 – 39 up, 43 down 0.476 winning percentage
    NY Knicks 2004/2005 – 33 up, 49 down 0.402 winning percentage
    NY Knicks 2005/2006 (YTD) – 19 up, 54 down 0.260 winning percentage

    And today Larry wonders aloud in the press if he will be fired. The one thing that does seem clear is that something has to change in the streets of Gotham. Larry, Isiah, Dolan, and the Knicks players – probably need to get rid of any two in order to get the franchise back on the right path. And given that Chairmen or Governors (or whatever Dolan’s title is) rarely fire themselves, suddenly Larry’s odds don’t look too good.

    I don’t know that I ever understood exactly why Larry was sent packing from Detroit. Loyalty, disloyalty, style, personality, airing too much laundry in the press, and most importantly the direction of the team all rolled together to create a mess that Joe D and Mr. Davis chose a clear path through. If the Pistons had won the last six minutes of game seven, would Larry have stayed? I’m guessing so, but I’m also guessing the decision had been made well before the players took the court that day.

    I always liked Larry, warts, bad plumbing, and all, though I surely didn’t have to play for him. If nothing else, I always felt his heart was in the right place, and that means a lot. But I guess hubris makes chumps of us all, and Larry sure wasn’t hiding behind the door when the good Lord gave it out. I’d like to think that he went to the Knicks for reasons other than pride, that he didn’t let himself be ruled by that part of him who felt betrayed and that prideful part that wouldn’t let him step back and evaluate his position in life and in his career. I’d like to think that, but I’m not really sure I can believe it.

    I think Larry took the no win job because he was afraid of being seen as a failure, afraid of life without the basketball adrenaline drug. In some weird way it makes him all the more human and all the more understandable. If the axe does fall again, I hope Larry won’t make the same pride guided mistake and leap into a new no win situation. But I wouldn’t bet money.

    Is it time for feel sorry for Larry? Not because he was a pawn, but because he acted for all the wrong reasons, but still acted. We could use us a good Greek playwright, for surely this is the stuff of tragedy.
     
  6. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think the article misses the point. Larry Brown has not had some dramatic change of coaching style or personality. He is the same guy he has always been. The same guy that battled with AI, the same guy that coached his way into the Hall of Fame with his cantankerous methods....

    Are the Knick fans saying they didn't know what they were getting? They were duped? The clash with Starbury came as a surprise? Is there anyone in the free world who has ever watched an NBA game that didn't know that LB and MArbury would clash? No...I didn't think so..

    So how does this mess fall on LB. He did exactly what he always does...no surprises. Ho health issues to speak of...but somehow there is an outrage because he did exactly what he was hired to do? Hmmmm.

    Should the guy who hired him and put together this mess of a team maybe take a bit of the blame? Or is it easier to lay it on the doddering old dinosaur?
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    @dba - I like Larry as well. For his flaws probably more than his strengths. He's one of the few "characters" left in the NBA, a league that has been sanitized and homogenized for the Sprite/Nike generation.

    I suppose that is why I like Ron Artest too. The league needs villains and weirdos. It needs flavour.

    Unfortunately, the media is so relentless (particularly on the internet) that when they demonize someone, they don't build his reputation as a foil, they destroy him as a human being. It's sad. Because all we are left with is Dennis Rodman outside the HOF and LeBron James in our faces 24/7 before he has played (let alone won) a playoff game.
     
  8. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    The reality is that if a team is not ready for Larry Brown's brand of basketball they will fail. Larry needs control of the organization or to be paired with someone that shares his thoughts on player evaluations. The theatrics with the media have always been part of the package, The Larry Brown Recipe. Here are the directions:
    1. Larry introduces new system
    2. Larry brings in players/molds players to support system
    3. Wins increase
    4. Larry theatrics take toll on team
    5. Team begins to underachieve
    6. Larry bolts
    7. Cycle continues
    So what has this chicken tasting like wood (Sugar Hill reference ;) ) ? The season in New York has been a complete disaster. Its what happens when steps 1 and 2 don't get executed successfully. And now we wonder if it is the players or Larry's inability to adapt those players to his system? Personally, I think the Knicks woes are more of a reflection of the bizzare collection of talent Zeke has assembled versus Larry's inablity to adapt his system to the players on the roster. Unfortunately step 4 is settling in before the wins have had an opportunity to accumulate. ...the end result will be that someone gets fired.

    As I read more and more of Larry's in-press comments I am beginning to see that we probably got all we were going to get from LB. Bill Davidson got it right again. Zeke sucks as a GM and it was best that we severed the ties with LB when we did. Otherwise, maintaining our starting five and maintaining a winning, healthy team first philosophy would have been a challenge for years to come. You can't promote the "Pistons basketball" team first philosophy when you have a head coach that constantly promotes his agenda in front of whats best for the team.

    Thank God this is no longer our problem.
     
  9. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Our first house in Chicago was a beautiful gut rehab of a 19th century townhouse. Really pretty, with a great layout, everything was wonderful for a couple of years. The longer we lived there, the more we saw things that the contractor didn’t do all that well (in some cases did really badly), the more cracks in the basement walls, etc. (I’ll avoid the obvious plumbing analogies.) Pretty soon we were more worried about what was going to go wrong than we were enjoying living in the house. It’s hard to describe the sense of relief when we sold it for a nice chunk of change and moved on.

    Bittersweet, you know, sad to see it go, but really happy for having moved on.
     
  10. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

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    Not feeling sorry for Larry. Not for a minute. Now he's angling for another team to choose between a public display of love (i.e., dumping players and/or firing Thomas) and buying him out for a heinous amount of money. God, I wish my inner turmoil paid so well.

    He had one of maybe two situations in the NBA where his brittle, neurotic act could be accommodated by highly professional players and just the right kind of management, and it wasn't enough. If he's not man enough to stick it out in New York, let him leave the Knick money on the table and actually go coach kids.
     
  11. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    I'm not so sure about that.

    With Brown you always took the bad with the good. I think he is the same "X's" & "O's" guy, but maybe with age and success he has become more full of himself...to the point where the bad now heavily outweighs the good.

    The guy won a championship with the Pistons. (I believe he credits himself in his mind...IMO, Sheed was actually the piece that made the team greater than the Carlisle teams) Compare the records before Sheed arrived.

    The guy always had an ego, but maybe now it's way out of check. He wins an NBA championship and then gets a ridiculous contract to coach his dream team in a city teeming with media (he loves the spotlight). Did this go to his already big head? Yes, I think it overloaded.

    I do believe he HAS changed (for the worse), and is now pretty much intolerable and ineffective. Yeah, I think Isiah stinks as a GM and ownership deserves equal blame. But we are talking about Larry, and if he did what Phil Jackson is doing, I believe a lot of people would be saying what a genius he is and how dumb the Pistons were for letting him go.

    I'm with TFD on this one (Did I really say that?). I enjoy watching Larry and the city of New York fail miserably and point the fingers of blame.

    Personally, I cannot stand Phil Jackson, either, but I do believe he is an excellent coach...much more effective than Brown.

    The best coach in the NBA? Popovich, IMO. He has Brown's knowledge of the game and a fantastic rapport with his players. He keeps them disciplined yet they like and respect the guy. He doesn't point fingers or take credit for his players accomplishments.

    I loved Larry's comments last year when Sheed blew the Horry game..."It's my fault, I told him a hundred times, but I should have told him more until he got it, that's a coaches job..." (That's not an exact quote, but it was something like that). Well, wasn't he really saying..."How many times do I need to tell that dumbass what to do?..it ain't my fault". (No, Larry...it was not your fault...but did you really have to make that comment to blame the guy under the guise of protecting him?)

    Popovich is Luke Skywalker to Larry's Darth Vader. Larry succumbed to the powers of the Dark side. His strengths are no longer used for good, and are now a destructive force to teams... especially those already weak of mind and talent like the Knicks. The bad has overshadowed the good.
     
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    It's amazing that the Pistons made the playoffs last year with LB coaching.
     
  13. Caliban

    Caliban First Round Draft Pick

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    You said it, Darth. The above is quintessential lb.4lb.:nod:
     
  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Here are the actual quotes, from the Finals media availabilty pressers. I don't see once in there where he put it on Sheed or implied that it was all the player's fault.

    I'm always big on getting the actual quote and not paraphrasing from memory. It's too easy to unintentionally spin something with personal perception, and when it's just a google search away, why not aim for accuracy.

    Q. The defense on the play that they inbounded with nine seconds left, was Sheed supposed to trap on that play? What happened on the play?

    COACH LARRY BROWN: I guess there was miscommunication, but ultimately it's on me. You know, we talked about what we wanted to do, and he made a shot, made a great shot.

    After it was over, we still had a chance. We're down one, we had 5.5 seconds. But up two with nine seconds to go, you talk about the things all year that you want to accomplish, and unfortunately we had a little miscommunication. You know, if everybody gets it, then you know you don't get in that situation. If everybody doesn't, it ultimately falls on me, so obviously we didn't get it.

    Q. Coach, how big of a challenge is it now to go into San Antonio and winning those two games?

    COACH LARRY BROWN: I have to get over this one. This was tough. We had a great opportunity. One, it was a heck of a game, and you've got to give them credit. Robert made some huge shots when they needed it. They defended great and did a lot of good things.

    It's the kind of game you hate to see anybody lose, so we've got to just bounce back. We haven't won down there in a long time. We've got to figure out a way to realize that we've got to make it a one game series.

    Q. Robert Horry so many times in his career has come up big in the playoffs, can you talk about his energy and the spark that he provide for the Spurs team?

    COACH LARRY BROWN: Well, he made five out of six threes and made a big drive late. He did everything. He defended well. That's why I think he has five rings. He's a big time player. In moments like that, that's the difference. I have a lot of respect for that team and him, and what he's been able to do throughout his career. You don't play on championship caliber teams unless you have what he has. He's done it with Houston, he's done it with L.A. and now he's done it with San Antonio, and he usually does it at the most important time.

    Q. At what point during the tight game when you watched Robert Horry hit one three and then the other do you start stressing to your players, don't leave him alone?

    COACH LARRY BROWN: We did that two months ago. You know, you're up two with nine seconds to go, all you're thinking of is, no three point shots. Worst thing that can happen to you is a lay up, you've still got two time outs.

    We've talked about it all the time. A couple of them he made with a hand up, but two we just left him. I have no explanation, but in big games, guys are trying their best. He still had to make the shots. Regardless, he still had to make them.

    Again, somebody asked me something a while back about the fact that we didn't have any close games, what will happen if you get in it and if your team has been prepared for situations like that, and my response is, you do that from day one. You know, every practice you go over situations like that. It's not something that can all of a sudden because it's a 30 point game, go to a close game. You go over those things every single day. You talk about it. We always talk about late clock, switching late clock, and never trapping because you know the shot ultimately is going to come up.

    But again, sometimes things like that happen. But he still had to make the shot, and you've got to give him credit for that. My background, down two, I'm damned if I let my guy take a three. I'm telling them nine seconds, we'll take it to the rim, get fouled, get a chance to offensive rebound. That's how dumb I am.
     
  15. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    I didn't "unintentionally" put a spin on anything. What bothers me is an unintentionally condescending attitude.

    That is my perception of what he meant by what he said. I am not aware of any forum rules:

    (1) prohibiting paraphrasing a quote from memory.

    (2) Giving an OPINION on what somebody really meant by a quote.

    I stand by what I said. I do not believe the actual quote you researched changes the spirit of my interpretation of what Brown said. What was the purpose of Brown's comments? Everyone knew it wasn't Brown's fault. But he is so insecure he just had to get that dig. Why didn't he just say, "yeah, he made a big mistake...but you know, it shouldn't have come down to that. I should have used the bench. It's really my fault, not his." ??? If he wanted to protect his players he would have said that.

    But I guess you can fool some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."...sorry, I'm not going to google it to get the exact words...I'm sure most people get my drift.
     
  16. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

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  17. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You know, I purposely bold unintentional to make it clear that I don't think you did it with ill purpose (aware of fragile forum egoes), and you start crying about someone refuting your statement. You can't have it both ways.

    If you're going to put an opinion out there, be prepared to get an opposing one, or asked for/provided with factual information. When you paraphrase, you take the risk of being inaccurate.

    There are no forum rules for that. My point was that the actual quotes to make your case are readily available, and I thought your paraphrasing was pretty one sided and biased. Hence, why I posted the actual quotes so folks can draw their own conclusions.

    And that's your prerogative.

    How can you read that and see that he is throwing Sheed under the bus? He's doing everything he can to credit Horry with making a big play rather than his guys for coming up lame.

    Don't gloss over this...

    I'm sure they do. You're probably in popular company with the number of people who would like to discredit EVERYTHING he did in Detroit, that none of it was to his credit, or that he had any positive influence on the players. That the 2004 championship was in spite of him and not because of him. Again, that's your prerogative.
     
  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I normally steer clear of these because I realize my opinion is in the minority, and Larry certainly did not do ANYTHING when he exited the Pistons organization to give me a leg to stand on with regards to his character.

    Just the same, it's how I feel and like any good story, there is more than one side and plenty of debate.

    From TrueHoop

    http://www.truehoop.com/new-york-knicks-10367-isiah-thomas-is-the-new-bob-whitsitt.html

    Larry's definitely not blameless, but he's not the biggest or only problem in NY.
     
  19. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Sorry for disagreeing with you...I didn't mean to disturb the retirement home atmosphere of this forum. You can go back to sleep now. I have to be off to work in a few minutes, but thanks for the fun time.:bored: :)
     
  20. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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