OK Joe...Jokes Over. Trade someone, seriously

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by tads, Oct 19, 2009.

  1. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2005
    Messages:
    3,728
    Likes Received:
    737
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Howard Stubb's garage
    I think we are at a similar turning point as the McCloskey Pistons were after the '85 playoff exit.

    The keepers at that point were Zeke, Vinnie and Laimbeer. The championship team was built in the next 12 months without a top 10 pick. He looked for guys that would buy into the idea that they would have to sacrifice stats for the team.

    Right now Rip is the most obvious example of a guy who won't sacrifice his game for the team. He needs to go first. Rip became a Prima Donna after Chauncey left. He grieved and then %%%%%ed about being benched. Now he takes his shots whether or not they are falling. He needs to go.

    Tayshaun isn't a keeper either. He needs to go.

    You can post as ad nauseam about statistics but at this point it ain't about statistics. That first group of Piston champions had terrible team stats but they played as a team. Once Dantley stopped being willing to sacrifice his minutes he was gone.

    Same with these guys. Maybe the rebuilding could happen as quickly as it did during the 80s.
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    We need more cap space, less minute hogging vets and higher draft picks.

    Let's give our general manager Picasso a canvas and let him paint a masterpiece.
  3. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    14,113
    Likes Received:
    2,322
    Location:
    Michigan

    I completely agree.


    Rip = Kelly Tripucka?
    Tay = Kent Benson?
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    There is a guy I know in Bay City who could pass for Kent Benson.
  5. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Amish Hood
    Nice analysis Bills...
    Don't have a problem with Rips volume shooting...team play is obviously prefered... however from a management perspective padding the stats may not be so bad in a transition year... as long as the conversions improve (they will).
    Have to admit I would miss Tay... an intellegent player... sees the floor well... future coach material.
    Unfortunately reality speaks of a new direction.
  6. blackhawk

    blackhawk First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Detroit, Michigan
    As far as the New Orleans trade...West is an improvment at the frontline but not a huge improvment.

    With New Orleans looking to shed payroll I agree that New Orleans wouldn't want to take those specific contacts.

    As far as the Toranto trade...Calderon can easily average 14 & 9 as a starter. He has a high career FG % and free throw %. Has excellent ball handling skills evidenced by his assist/turnover ratio.

    Calderon would give us a much more balanced backcourt with Gordon, Stuckey and Bynum.

    Recent play of J. Jack is making Calderon expendable. Toronto is also interested in acquiring 2.

    And no A. Jamison per Roscoe rules lol
  7. monrams99

    monrams99 First Round Draft Pick

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Phillipines
    guys help me out..as per topic is concern, lemme ask this question who do you think is the current pistons that needs to be traded?including the salary keep thingy.....
  8. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,899
    Likes Received:
    767
    Location:
    Georgetown, KY
    I was going to answer until you brought up that salary cap thingy.
  9. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    3,396
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Amish Hood
    Rip is the logical choice... not because he's washed up or won't refind his shot.... at his age and salary it's not a good fit for our "next window"...
    Then you have all those SGs we have thingy :^)

    Another candidate is Kwame.... if we simply let his salary expire there's not much gain for our cap because we would still only have the MLE to spend (avg league salary)...
    Kwame could fetch a decent player in return as there are several teams that would benefit from the extra cap this summer.
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    16,977
    Likes Received:
    2,472
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicaaago
    Also consider that Kwame is a big bodied defender who could strategically be used by a contender to battle certain centers that they expect to face in the playoffs.

    He plays pretty good defense and fouls hard. Think Elden Campbell without a J.
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    506
    Location:
    Flint
    If anyone has to go, it should be Rip. Good player. He can shoot great, defend pretty well. Quite an asset to many teams if we trade him.

    Unfortunately, as much as I like Rip, he does not help our team right now. Our team is simply better off concentrating on getting the ball to the hoop, something Rip can't do.

    I reviewing the season so far, the worst change I see is when Rip came back the first time - and we seemed to morph right back into a out of whack jump shooting team.

    Now, with our coach, keeping Tay is dangerous, as most likely he will just get overplayed and sit most of the season out with a back injury. Still, he is the only experienced small forward we have. If the coach does get half a clue, and limits Tay's minutes, Tay can be very valuable to this team going forward. Now, this is again being optimistic, thinking a rookie coach can actually learn anything - but if he can't - it certainly does not matter what Joe does. So I got to hope, and I got to figure Tay fits into the picture going forward.

    Gordon is not that great a defender - but he does have size and athleticism that helps out here and there on defense. Plus he can get to the hoop as well as shoot from outside. Heck, I think he should be our backup point. (An opinion I formed in the preseason and have not changed - although Bynum has had games earlier in the season before his ankle injury to make me reconsider just a bit.)

    After Rip leaves, for whatever we get - and I am guessing a point is what we are looking for, we have a fine team.

    Starting guards Stuckey and Gordon, with Daye and Bynum backing them up. (of course - maybe that point we trade for will start with Stuckey coming off the bench.)

    Tay starting at small forward, with maybe this new guy Amara Sy backing him up.

    Wilcox and JMAX starting as our bigs, with Ben Wallace and CV as backups. (Kwame occasionally vs. bigger centers.)

    JJ would get spot minutes at both forward spots.
  12. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,899
    Likes Received:
    767
    Location:
    Georgetown, KY
    Lee, I appreciate your thoughts - really I do. But I can't understand why you always seem to think that our more productive big men - the ones who actually get playing time because they are playing well, mind you (once Dice, now JJ), are only good enough for "spot minutes".
  13. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    506
    Location:
    Flint
    We are on a 9 game losing streak. Who is playing well exactly?
  14. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,899
    Likes Received:
    767
    Location:
    Georgetown, KY
    Touche. :MusicBigGrin:
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    19,888
    Likes Received:
    1,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dagobah
    That was a good one.
  16. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    11,919
    Likes Received:
    1,195
    Location:
    Rancho Cucamonga, CA
    At this point it doesn't appear that this season is going anywhere with the coach torn between playing the injured vets with egos and the youth without skills.

    If I were Joe, I would seek out trades now for both Rip and Tay, Before the trade deadline and inter-twine them with the your youth for the rest of the season. If that new set of players makes the playoffs and looks promising losing in the first or second round, you might be able to convince Bosh or a semi-hi profile free agent to come around this summer to play ball with us next winter...:sssh:
  17. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,391
    Likes Received:
    506
    Location:
    Flint
    Answer anticipated. Not funny. Way too unoriginal. Its past 1am here, you got to do better than that if you are going to keep me awake to talk to you.

    The fact is that aside from that 5 game win streak - which occurred under near ideal conditions as far as the schedule - JJ has been part of a pair of extended losing streaks. Sure he hustles. Looks like a sound player. But he is not good enough on perimeter defense to consistently make defensive rotations - and he is too small to contend with many of the PF's in the league.

    The guys I listed in the rotation can each do something to help win games. You may not like JMAX for instance, but he can play solid D against most PF's, something JJ can't do. You may think Wilcox is light on D, but he is not that bad while he most certainly can post up.

    Maybe you think Ben Wallace is too old? Go watch him at the Palace, and look closely at how much he gets into the works of the opposing offense and kills it.

    Stuckey and Gordon can handle the ball, and get to the basket.

    Daye has a lot of length, a good shot that is hard to stop. Bynum can explode to the hoop, and helps with the ball handling.

    Tay, if played within his limits, can do a ton of things. (overplayed and he is not of much worth - just depends on which way the coach decides he wants to go.)

    Amara Sy - hey, just to put a small forward playing backup small forward.

    And CV, when healthy, is quite a scorer. For now, I can certainly see JJ getting his minutes until CV is fully ready to play.

    I would surely like to hear your opinion on just who should not get minutes in favor of JJ getting them. Humor - not much use to me, sorry. Unless its good.
  18. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    7
    To me, you've got to trade Rip. Absolute must. And please do it before the season is completely lost.

    Then roll with (depending on what return we get for Rip):
    PG- Stuckey / Bynum
    SG- Gordon / Daye
    SF- Jonas / Prince
    PF- Max / CV
    C- Wallace / Wilcox

    People will say "Why Jonas over Prince?", but that is simply for fit. I think we need to start games off at "11" rather than the ease-it-in style of Tayshaun. That style worked ok when we had the talent to overcome it, but having the rebounding/hustle from Stuckey/Jonas/Max/Wallace will go a long ways on the nights when those first few shots aren't dropping. Tayshaun can still sub in pretty early and shift jonas to the 4, but I don't think we can afford to start games off "small-ish".

    I also think Prince can help calm down guys like Bynum/CV when they get too crazy trying to take the game over by themselves.
  19. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Michigan's Thumb
    Lee, not sure if you understood the response. CJ was saying that your response was spot on and trumped his reply. I think that was a compliment to your reasoning so I am not sure why the negative response??
  20. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,899
    Likes Received:
    767
    Location:
    Georgetown, KY
    Here's my answer - OK. In case you didn't know - I live in Utah, and I don't have League Pass. This means I don't watch the games. That's why I don't post very frequently in these threads. Because I don't watch the games and can't see who ought to be getting more minutes.

    Over the past few years I have seen enough games to see that it was clear that Antonio McDyess was a one-man stop-gap up front while Sheed, despite his defensive skills, was mostly air-mailing his games in from another planet, and J-Max forgot to show up half the time. In the playoffs, where I watched most of the Pistons games the past few years Dice was a CLUTCH rebounder, especially on offense. I don't profess to understand the nuances of defensive rotations, play-calling, game analysis, slow-motion replay, etc, so I usually stay out of those debates as well. All I see is that Dice was most definitely earning his minutes in the rotation, and now Jerebko went from 2nd round draft pick to starter and steady minutes-getter in a few short months. Nobody can do that unless they are contributing. That's why I always find it strange to see your "Dice/JJ: 14th man as needed/spot minutes at the forward position" rotations.

    With that said, and as you pointed out, we are on a 9-game losing streak. Even though maybe some of our players are playing well at times, overall we are garbage right now. So I don't think it's a bad thing to try different rotations out. Personally I would love to see Kuester try your exact rotations out for a week and see how it goes.

Share This Page