Home Phoenix Suns Saturday, January 11, 2014

Discussion in 'January 2014' started by roscoe36, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    A lot of critical posts for last nights game.....I can only imagine how worse these comments would have been if they had lost..:tape2:
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  2. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Lambraine, I agree with much of what you wrote. It was a win but not a win that gives a lot of confidence considering that awful stretch of games before. The Pistons are 6 games below .500 in a weak, weak league with several teams weakened further by injury.

    I agree with Lee on Singler (poor to average defender and poor rebounder). I do see an offensive upside to Singler in the way he moves without the ball. He can turn out to be a productive scorer as he gains experience and a useful player but he is not there yet.

    But what hit me during the bad patch of games was that the problem wasn't Singler or not, Pope in or Pope out, Stuckey being hurt, or Josh shooting threes, or other little things like a team with no out of bounds play. It started to look like a team, put together by Joe to compete for a year until the gaps could be filled, was not really good enough to compete. And the coaching wasn't up to allowing that team to overcome some of its shortcomings. Teams were starting to "toy" with the Pistons--turning it on only when necessary to ice a game. And the Piston players looked lost.

    I saw a little swagger back with the Pistons this last game but we will see...

    So the problem starts with the team Joe put together for this season and goes on down to the direction given to the team on the floor to compete. Both are lacking.

    When you hear talk that Monroe is not being discussed in trade talks it means that he is being inquired about. The other GMs are like vultures, smelling Piston blood as each loss mounted. The Pistons need a Joe Johnson type guy at the two guard (Pope can develop at his own pace and may take a year or two) and they made need another point guard. Jennings has shown that he can play an occasional two guard and be a 6th man type of guard off the bench. So far, he has not shown that he is, for sure, the starting point guard of the future.

    Smith needs players to play around. His game is genuine from around 15 ft. on in. He is not a go to post up guy time and again.

    Back to Monroe. Do you re-up and wait yet another year or two to see him develop? Can you afford to? Monroe, himself, may want to move on. The more you watch Monroe, the more he looks like a center. Andre is still a ways away (1-2 years?) but he is the center of the future.

    And so, a lot of moves need to be made. The CV expiring contract, the Stuckey contract, Bynum, and then what to do with Monroe. Yes, Langlois on Pistons.com indicated the Pistons can get better from within, as the young players develop. But can the organization wait maybe another 2-3 years? I don't think that much time is available.
  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  4. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Stats do lie. You got to look at the usage of a player to determine how good a rebounder he is. If a player is continually positioned inside on defense, his defensive rebounding numbers will look good, even though whenever he goes for a contested rebound, the other guy comes down with the bound. And if the other team continually ignores you on the offensive end, less chance they are going to box you out. Singler for the most part is told to stay inside on defense, and he is our least defended player on the offensive end.
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    So he gets a lot of rebounds, but he's not a good rebounder because he's in good position. I can accept that flaw.
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  6. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    I feel like an ass complaining about Cheecks playing Singler over Drummond now that I know that he's the 22nd best rebounding SF in the league.
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  7. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    If you watch Singler, game in and game out, he is too often rebounded over or pushed out of there. I have seen him fight for a ball now and again. My theory is that he is overplayed and often a bit worn out. He seems to have a game, here or there, where he is "live" on the board. But those games have not been many. Sure wouldn't consider him a good rebounder. His future in the league is as a secondary scorer I would imagine.

    But really, the construction of this Piston team (more than Singler per se) has been jolted by that bad streak. Can the team really rebound from it... And how long can moves be put off?
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Everybody misses shots, gives up points and gets out fought for rebounds. If you only watch one guy, it's amazing how bad they can look. But teams give up 40+ rebs and 100+ points almost every night. Usually the reason for that doesn't come down to one bench player.
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  9. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The key word here is usually.
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I left wiggle room for Siva.
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Who do you think is more likely to give up a particular rebound between Smith, Monroe, Drummond, or Singler, the guy who subs for all three of these players?

    Who do you think is less likely to get out to cover the perimeter between Stuckey, Pope, or Singler, when given equal opportunity to do so. How about Bynum - who even if he got out to the perimeter, would be ignored.

    Hey, I watch play after play, and break down the play, see who does what. From who sets the pick, who boxes out, etc. And I hardly just watch once. I may have a bias, but I check the play again to make sure I saw what I thought I saw the first time thru. No matter how many times you watch another player come and shoot right over Singler, or another player much taller than Singler take a rebound from him and get an easy putback while Singler just stares up at the play, it will not change what I see. And this last game, Singler and Bynum as a pair were hopeless around the basket to do anything defensively there. And CV, when he played, I can tell you he time and again fails to address anyone driving in.

    Other players do make mistakes too, and I point them out. Just right now, look at who is in the game:

    Pope, playing near flawless defense. What can I point out about him? He has one of the lowest turnover rates in the league. In the past few games, we have seen him shut out one of the other teams best scoring for a whole half.

    You want me to go on about Drummonds mistakes? While he has five blocks, 13 points, and 13 rebounds in a game?

    How about Smith? 25 points, plenty of other stats. Sure he makes a mistake here and there, but he continually makes it up.

    Monroe. Look at how slick he is going inside. The best defensive player, maybe not, but I dare say he is going to
    seldom have his lunch taken from him when it comes to getting a rebound.

    Jennings had 18 assists this last game. I read the other reports before I write mine. Plenty was already said about some questionable shot selection. Sure he could do better. But he generated about half our offense.

    Stuckey did pretty good in short minutes in this game.

    When I watch the game, I will most likely see the same things I saw the first time. Bynum and Singler getting killed inside when it comes to rebounding and defense. And guess what, I will report the same thing. Actually, I have been avoiding doing 2nd reports on games - as I would rather spend my time following the other 6 teams I follow.

    Anyway, if you think I am so biased against Singler, I will ask you to do what I do. Go watch the game, play by play. You tell me how many plays Singler was the guy primarily responsible for a score. I will be glad to compare notes.
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    So, I just went and looked up the specific stats.

    In terms of "contested rebounds per game", here is how our guys rank:
    1) Andre Drummod- 5.7 (leads the entire NBA)
    2) Greg Monroe- 3.8 (top 15)
    3) Josh Smith- 2.4
    4) Kyle Singler- 1.3

    How does 1.3 contested rebounds per game look compared to his peers?
    He plays 23.8 mpg, so that is one contested rebound every 18.3 minutes.

    Paul George gets one every 26.1 min
    Lebron James gets one every 24.7 min
    Wilson Chandler gets one every 21.6 min


    So, in conclusion, Kyle Singler gets tough rebounds at a higher rate than the 2 best NBA players at his position and also at a higher rate than a guy that I've seen some desire to acquire within the forum. All 3 of these comps are oversized athletic players. It's hard to believe that it's the result of cherry picking or being ignored by the other team since he's still 15th in the NBA in terms of distance traveled per minute. Given that he's the most active mover without the ball on our team, my theory is that he's getting rebounds because he is always on the move and his man can't locate him once shots go up.

    It's also hard to believe that a SF that covers as much ground as Tony Parker gives off the impression that he's gassed.
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  13. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    The last time I did that, it was wildly different. I logged an entire quarter where he got the blame and all I could find was that his man scored once by running him around perimeter picks and then driving at Drummond, his man scored once in transition (when Pope picked him up) and then another time when KS could have been indirectly responsible by failing to secure a defensive rebound (after that, he broke up a P&R by helping in the paint, then the other team inbounded and another player scored over another Piston player). I had to double check to make sure that I was reviewing the same game. It was like I was watching a better basketball instruction video of how to play perfect positional defense, starring Kyle Singler.

    I didn't even start the year liking the guy, but after checking all the claims against him, I've grown to respect his abilities.

    I've seen you criticize coaches throughout a season and I've seen you talk about how players are better than they seem over the years, but I can't ever remember you having such a strong and consistent criticism against a player. And it's such a strange player to pick out- he's no drama, he hustles, he's selective with his shots, he plays like a coach's son, he went to Europe for a year to prepare his game for the NBA, he gets paid peanuts, he gives his all to Kids Unlimited, and he comes off the bench. He even has a likable personality and has fun with the game with his "Buckets" videos.


    One other thing that I just looked up is a stat called "defensive impact". It looks at the conversion rate of the opponents when each player is the one guarding them at the rim. Kyle is 2nd on the team behind Drummond (of qualified players) and only allows 50.7% shooting from point blank (not just from his man, but from anybody attempting a point blank shot when he's in the way). 1.8 FGs per game on 3.5 attempts. The block that he had last night on the fast break wasn't unusual. He wasn't even to half court when the first player attempted their layup. When many guys go into job mode, he sprinted down and turned the tide.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
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  14. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Thank god. I thought I was the only one. Kyle's positional defense is excellent. You know who ALWAYS ends up trailing his man....Jennings! MCW had a free ticket into the lane until KCP had to check him. It makes the whole front line have to rotate. Kyle is by no means a defensive stopper but he's limiting back cuts, wide open looks and he's helping the overall team defense. On the opposite end of the spectrum is Charlie V. You never get the sense that he know where he should be and how he needs to angle himself. I don't know if ya'll did that drill where one hand keeps pointing at your man and the other at the ball. Too often on this team you got guys angled out of position even if they're sort of in the right spot.
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  15. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Charlie is just not physically able to move very quickly.

    With jennings, he is only 165 lbs and getting picked on every possession.
  16. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Even at his worst, Smith has been great. He's THAT GUY that this team was missing. If you're tearing out your hair, its because that's who he is. But he makes plays.
  17. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I like how Cheeks is always instructing KCP
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  18. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Well, you do realize what you just wrote? Our coach replaces Drummond, a guy who gets 5.7 contested rebounds per game, with Singler, a guy who gets 1.3 contested rebounds per game. Not really a good move. Not as bad when replacing Monroe, which he does every game. But still pretty bad. Not as bad when replacing Smith. But still not great. And how does Singler do in replacing the blocks that Drummond gets?

    Also, stat sites have their use. But watching the games is a better way to see how good a player is. Remember this, you got to look at who is backing a guy up - and if the other team does not manage to score a moment later after your defense got scrambled in helping you.
  19. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Singler doesn't replace Drummond at C. Monroe slides to C, Smith slides to PF, and Singler fills in at SF. Of course, that's the reason why Smith's contested rebs are so high (because he plays so much at PF).

    By your argument, you'd be worried about subbing in Lebron or Paul George because our rebounding would suffer, since they both grab contested rebs at the SF position at a lower rate than Singler.

    Notice how our rebounding is better than our opponents even when Singler is on the court (51.2% to 48.8%).


    Things that we do better than the opponents don't keep me up at night.


    I watch games like everybody else here. But getting 50 different observations, some wildly different and opposite, doesn't really seem that enlightening to me. Then I'd have to check the credentials of the people that are providing the opinions and observations. And it seems like not many guys on an online forum will have impressive bball scouting resumes. It's more of a hobby thing at best. If we're lucky, it comes from somebody that played bball at a low to moderate level (HS, junior college).

    I find that the part that we as a forum do well is generate hypotheses. Not all of them check out statistically, but that is OK. When we take a theory and analyze it and it appears to have some truth behind it, then we all get smarter. And when we put misconceptions to bed, we also get smarter.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
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  20. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Not counting Philly and New York, teams that are 12-25 and 14-22 at the moment respectively, Singler is minus 86 in our last 7 games. If you think he is so good, can you explain why we consistently are playing losing basketball when he is in the game. I would love to hear your theory on this.

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