1. Football Picks Survivor is done for 2014. Congrats to billlaimbeer from The Pistons Forum

Pick a starting five..

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    I know I've started a number of threads like this before. Sorry (really) if it's getting annoying. But I was hung-over all day. I busted out a lot of the old basketball SportsCentury's. Basketball history is probably my favorite past-time. I love (love!) talking about hypothetical all-time teams. And this board is always where I get the most intelligent conversation about it (and learn the most about it).

    Important note. I'm not talking about just picking the best five players of all-time here. I'm talking about putting together the best TEAM here. Incredible talent is obviously the most important prerequisite. But we're also talking about 'fit' on and off the court together.. the desire to win.. team-first attitude.. character.. chemistry.. etc.

    Here's mine, in the order I put it together:

    SG: Michael Jordan. I respect the hell out of a lot of aspects of MJ's life. But I still hate him. I hate how the league did everything it could to ensure his success on the court. I hate how the media did everything it could to portray him as perfect. I hate how phony he was in the public eye. I hate how (I presume..) he treated his teammates, coaches and opponents - and how selfish he was - early in his career. But, with all that being said. Was he the best player of all-time? Probably. Did he want to win as much as anyone - before, during and after his career - in the game? Probably. Did he mature into being enough of a team player? Yeah. Every team needs an alpha-dog. MJ's mine. (*Jerry West was my not-so-tough cut).

    PF: Bill Russell. The best post-defender and rebounder of all-time. More importantly, the best team leader of all-time. And as some have said, the best winner of all-time. As a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands, he's perfect for a team like this. As an incredible athlete for a big man who can run up and down the court with the athletes I intend to surround him with, he's also perfect. As intelligent as anyone who's ever taken the court. And possibly the best fast-beak igniter of all-time as well. He's a no-brainer for me. I did put him at his unnatural PF position, however, because I do need a dominant low-post scorer.

    PG: Magic Johnson. Was he the most talented point guard of all-time? No. Oscar Robertson was. Was his desire to win the greatest? No. Isiah Thomas' was. But really, Magic is a no-brainer pick here. Clearly the best distributor of all-time, which is perfect for a team like this. A true pass-first star. Big O was really just a Michael Jordan at the point, which this team doesn't really need IMO. And Zeke too was most definitely a score-first point (it also doesn't help that MJ hated him). Magic to me just seemed like a guy who brought a priceless positive energy to the table. He didn't care about his stats. He just wanted to win. He made everyone happy. Everyone liked him. And everyone he played with just seemed to be rejuvenated and enthused by his positive energy. In short, I just think that he's a guy who makes things work. Puts it all together. Stirs the drink. And his unprecedented size gives him such an enormous advantage.

    SF: LeBron James. This was a tougher pick. Larry Bird was so prolific, and as intense a competitor as the world has ever seen. But he was definitely a score-first guy himself. And his athleticism would really hurt him in a lot of matchups. I would've liked Bird to spread the court out here, because Magic and Michael really aren't great outside shooters, but I couldn't do it. LeBron is the most talented player of all-time IMO. It's hard to blame him for "not giving max effort" when the effort he gives is more than enough to dominate and win championship after championship. And, best of all, in his natural element--he is most definitely a pass-first player. Which a team like this desperately needs.

    C: Hakeem Olajuwon. This was, by far, the toughest pick. Wilt's clearly the most talented center of all-time. But he really strikes me as a me-guy. A guy who didn't give great effort. And a guy who flat-out cowered on the biggest stage. Shaq too, to me, is definitely a me-guy who caused a lot of locker room problems with his immature BS, throughout his entire career. Kareem was the guy I really had a hard time leaving off. A consummate competitor and team-first player. Arguably the greatest scorer of all-time. A very fine defender. But man. Hakeem. His low-post offense was second to none. His low-post defense was second to none. He never caused a single locker room problem in his entire career. On a team like this, I think he'd be happy to be a secondary scorer. He won championships--on his own; something I've never seen a big man do. Really, really, really tough call. But I'm going with the Dream.

    C: H. Olajuwon
    PF: B. Russell
    SF: L. James
    SG: M. Jordan
    PG: M. Johnson
     
  2. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,103
    Likes Received:
    1,214
    Gender:
    Male
    Team that won't lose if they play well together. Spacing for days, high character guys with the exception of Wade and Jordan (maybe Thomas), Heaps of passing.

    PG - Chris Paul
    SG - Michael Jordan
    SF - Kevin Durant
    PF - Lebron James
    C - Wilt Chamberlain

    Bench
    PG - Isaiah Thomas
    SG - Dwyane Wade
    SF - Larry Bird
    PF - Dirk Nowitzki
    C - Tim Duncan

    I'm definitely younger than you but I am surprised that you left off both Dirk and Tim Duncan, even just for honorable mentions. Those two have to go down as two of the best players ever. And if either one is the worst guy on your team, then you can't lose.

    I took Wade over Kobe because I have always felt that Wade is the more complete player. He only lacks range on his shot, but on this team it simply won't matter. Could easily sub either him or Jordan for Ray Allen or Reggie Miller, both would slot in easily. I left out Melo because I honestly think that a SF/PF of Durant and Lebron would be simply unstoppable.
     
  3. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    Make it a starting 5. Being able to include guys on your bench makes the selections too easy
     
  4. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    16,220
    Likes Received:
    4,172
    Location:
    Michigan
    Panda's starting five:

    PG - Chris Paul
    SG - Michael Jordan
    SF - Kevin Durant
    PF - Lebron James
    C - Wilt Chamberlain
     
    blueadams likes this.
  5. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    Not having a bench to call on might change his thinking Bill, lol.

    But anyways, that is an interesting group. Durant and LeBron at the 3 and 4 really do space out the court, and more importantly, pull Bill Russell away from the paint. Tons of space inside for Wilt to operate. For Michael to attack. For CP3 to slash and dish.

    Weaknesses I see.

    1) Wilt. Him and Hakeem are really, IMO, a great matchup. I think Hakeem will give Wilt problems when he's got the ball in the low post, and defensively when Wilt's got the ball in the low-post. And vice-versa. The difference between the two is, A) Wilt can't shoot free throws ~ and hack-a-wilt will be in full effect down the stretch of a close game; and B) Wilt always cowered in the big games against a reasonable matchup, whereas Hakeem played his best (against Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing, etc.).

    2) LeBron. I think Bill shuts him down defensively. He'll force him to the perimeter -- and LeBron is most effective inside. And he'll force some really tough shots from the perimeter. He's also going to kill LeBron on the boards with a lot of put backs. Mentally, Bill will kill him.

    3) Durant. LeBron owns him defensively. No question, especially on a team like mine where he's not the go-to scorer, and can focus more on D. And LeBron really owns him inside offensively.

    2) MJ on MJ is MJ on MJ.

    1) CP3 on Magic. That's 6-0, 175 on 6-9, 220. And that's a big problem for you.

    My gameplan would be to attack CP3 and Durant inside with Magic and LeBron. Force Wilt and (your) LeBron to help defensively. And with Magic and (my) LeBron both being such great passers, they're gonna be able to find Hakeem and Russell (a bball genius) wide open inside for a lot of very easy looks.
     
  6. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    16,220
    Likes Received:
    4,172
    Location:
    Michigan
    I'm going small with my five:

    G - Magic (easy pick)
    G - Jordan (easy pick)
    G - Oscar (dude averaged 30.8 points, 12.5 rebounds and 11.8 assists in his 2nd season, plus I need an old guy)
    F - Bird (spreads the floor, dude can play a little bit, too)
    C - Kareem (dude scored over 38,000 points)
     
  7. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    I think our team's would match-up a little more evenly, Bill.

    Magic on Magic is Magic on Magic.

    MJ on MJ is MJ on MJ.

    LeBron on Big O is interesting. Two very similar players from very different eras. LeBron's bigger, stronger and longer. Big O's quicker. LeBron probably has the more refined outside game. I'd think that LeBron has the advantage here, but it could work out either way.

    Russell on Bird would be an excellent matchup too. Probably the two highest IQ players of all-time. Russell'd kill him on the boards though. And I think he'd be able to shut him down defensively, even on the perimeter. But Bird's probably more trouble for Bill than LeBron'd be.

    Hakeem on Kareem is a great matchup. That was the toughest decision on my squad for a reason. All in all, I think they'd be very even. Hakeem'd have an advantage offensively in the low-low post. But Kareem would counter that with an advantage offensively from 15 feet out. Rebounding might be the deciding factor between them, in which I think Hakeem has a slight advantage (which is why I picked him).
     
  8. Laimbrane

    Laimbrane All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2008
    Messages:
    1,245
    Likes Received:
    963
    PG: Magic Johnson
    - Probably the easiest selection out of all of them. Dude was 6'8", a team player, actually played all five positions over the course of his career, and did EVERYTHING well.
    SG: Michael Jordan
    - Also a minimum-brainer. Very good defender, tough competitor, great scorer, great range, a psychopathic will to win... the only strikes against him would be his "only" above-average shooting accuracy and ball-hoggishness. If I'm looking for a team, Jordan loses points for not always playing well with others, but if you get four other guys that can play well with others, then you can let this dude be the team leader. Only one alpha-dog, though, and that does limit some of our other choices.
    C: Wilt Chamberlain
    - This is the toughest position for me, because of what I want out of the player. Ideally, I want a guy that's going to protect the paint, rebound the ball, and score inside efficiently when called on (stretch the floor, in other words). Chamberlain was strong as an ox, a true 7-footer, allegedly a great defender, one of the best rebounders of all time, and had three of the highest FG% seasons of all time. The Dream is a close second, and I would also be very happy with Russell, Howard, or Shaq, as well.
    F1: Lebron James
    - When you get to the SF position, things get a bit dicier. Obviously Lebron belongs on the team; not only is he great at everything but he's unselfish enough to fit into the team mold. The real question is whether you put him at the 3 or the 4 - now it becomes an issue of having the best team versus having the best five players at each position.
    F2: Kevin Durant
    - You could fairly easily replace Durant with half a dozen other players and still have an outstanding team, but I like Durant for his unselfishness and his flexibility. The guy can drive to the basket, knock down the three, and play above-average defense.

    I'm happy with this team. If I was to construct a team that I think could beat them, I would go with Paul/Kobe/Nowitzki/Duncan/Olajuwon and rely on the size advantage to carry the team. That would be a very evenly-matched battle, I would think, and hella-fun to watch.
     
  9. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    16,220
    Likes Received:
    4,172
    Location:
    Michigan
    I ran a simulation and had our teams play 100 times, Blue. My team won 97 games, your team won 3 games.
     
  10. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    Pertaining to your center candidates, Russell wasn't that refined of an inside scorer. Neither is Dwight, obviously. And I wonder why you aren't even considering Kareem? Picking between he and Hakeem was almost like flipping a coin for me.
    -The ESPN SportsCentury's of Wilt and Shaq are both on youtube, and I'd highly recommend watching both if you haven't seen them. Totally changed my perspective on Wilt, and even Shaq to a degree.
    ---Wilt went to the NBA Finals with the more talented team many, many times. And whether it was Bill Russell, Kareem or even limping Willis Reed, he cowered each and every time he was matched up against a great center on the biggest stage. And his often times superior teams (Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, Billy Cunningham, Hal Greer) lost because of it. Listening to the players, coaches and basketball personalities/experts of his era talk about him.. eh, I don't want him. Sounded like a super selfish dude. An all me-guy. Caused major problems with almost all of his coaches (called one - - who he went to the NBA finals with - - the "dumbest coach on the planet" to the press earlier on in the season). Caused a lot of problems with his teammates. Even got benched in one NBA Finals, where Jerry West lit it up. Didn't work hard in or out of season. Didn't really care about winning. Not half as much as his personal statistical achievements, which he compiled a great deal of against half-ass six and a half-foot centers of the era (20,000 women? yeah, right). Physically, he was the greatest freak of all time, perhaps in all of sports. But the consensus on him seemed to be that he would've been better off in an individual sport.
    ---And Shaq. Also definitely a "me-guy" who caused a lot of problems with teammates and coaches. Once held a players only meeting - BEFORE he won his 1st championship with the Lakers - where he stated that "We cannot win with Kobe" ~~~> right in front of Kobe!! Also. Head to head. Center-dominant team vs. center dominant team. Prime vs. prime. (Penny was probably actually better than anyone on Houston). Hakeem swept him.
    ---And the FREE THROWS!!

    I guess with your second forward pick, it's a matter of style. I do think you should watch the SportsCentury's on Bird and Russell, though (Bird's is on youtube). I think people really underestimate just how talented these guys were (by any era's standards), how incredibly tough they were, what great leaders they were, and how badly they wanted to win. Durant may be the most physically gifted of the three - - although there's a strong argument in Russell's corner there - - but I think that's all he is, and I didn't even consider him.
    ...Isiah Thomas once said, "If Larry, Magic, Michael and I went into a room together...I'd bet on Larry to be the only one walking out." Dude was sensational. The best hand-eye coordination in the history of the game. And probably the smartest player in the history of the game. The Bird us Pistons beat was past prime with a bad back. Sad, but true.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  11. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    I wish I could dislike a post. That simulation is so bogus dude. Run your team against --- or any team you can dream up against ---
    C: 62-63 Wilt
    PF: 69-70 SPENCER HAYWOOD
    SF: 08-09 Lebron
    SG: 88-89 Jordan
    PG: 63-64 Oscar
    ...Then talk to me about that simulator

    A selfish ball-hog point guard, a selfish ball-hog shooting guard, a selfish ball-hog center, LeBron and some PF most people have never even heard of comprise the greatest possible team of all time on "the simulator"
     
  12. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    16,220
    Likes Received:
    4,172
    Location:
    Michigan
    Okay, I admit that I used a coin toss as my simulation tool. Heads, my team won. Tails, my team won. If the coin rolled too far away for me to read it, your team won.

    :lol:
     
  13. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,079
    Likes Received:
    1,323
    I actually ran it in a real simulator and Bills team won 96-4. Pretty funny the coin toss simulation almost ended up the same.
     
    BillLaimbeer and blueadams like this.
  14. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    I vote that we ban talk or use of "the simulator" in this thread. It's atrocious. Talk and use of various coin flip simulations I suppose we can roll with, though
     
    Ernie the Slow Adult likes this.
  15. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,482
    Likes Received:
    495
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Best starting 5 of Piston bench players ( past and present ) ? - feel free to employ the use of 48 min stats.
     
  16. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    16,220
    Likes Received:
    4,172
    Location:
    Michigan
    Well, Vinnie Johnson was one of the best guards to come off the bench, in my mind.

    Corliss Williamson actually won the 6th Man of the Year award, so I will add him to my squad.

    After that, there are so many others to pick from....
     
  17. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    If I was going to pick a team that'd best match-up against my starting five - C: Hakeem, PF: Russell, SF: LeBron, SG: MJ, PG: Magic - it'd be:

    C: Kareem. I've already discussed the reasons I don't like Wilt and Shaq, and the reasons why Hakeem-Kareem would be a great matchup.

    PF: Bird. Going against Russell (and his limited offensive game), you can tolerate an average athlete here. He'd get crushed on the boards, but Bird's offensive game might be enough to take this matchup. He'll keep Bill Russell honest on the perimeter - prevent him from helping Hakeem down low, and to a degree, prevent him from terrorizing the defensive glass. Bird might have a real advantage taking him off the dribble as well.

    SF: Elgin Baylor or Durant. I really don't know enough about Elgin to decide on this one yet. I'll get back to this after some research. LeBron's a very unique matchup, though. It'll take a unique player.

    SG: Kobe. I hate Kobe. But there's no one else who can match up against MJ. Love Jerry West, and he was supposed to be a great athlete/defender. But a 6-2 guard's really got no place going up against a backcourt of Michael and Magic. Thought a little bit about Joe-D as a shut down. Thought a little bit about Reggie - as a deep range shooter is probably your best defense in an MJ matchup (but his defense just isn't enough).

    PG: Oscar. No one else even comes close to matching up against Magic physically. Might have a hard time w/ a score-first PG on a team like this. But there's really no other direction to go. Maaaybe you could use defensive stalwarts Walt Frazier or Gary Payton (both 6-4). But I think you'd be better off just trying to turn Oscar into more of a pass-first point.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
  18. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    *I've changed my mind. I'm going with Kareem over Hakeem. I think his superior basketball intelligence would trump Hakeem's strength on a team like this.

    So..

    My starting five is C: Kareem, PF: Russell, SF: LeBron, SG: MJ, PG: Magic. If I was going to pick five to go against them, it'd be:

    C: Hakeem.
    -Wilt.
    x-Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Walton, Mikan.

    .....I've gone back and forth on this. I've explained the reasons I love Kareem and Hakeem above; and why I think it'd be such a great matchup. I've explained the reasons I don't like Wilt/Shaq. I guess I'd still consider Wilt though, due to his FREAKish athleticism. Shaq I wouldn't, because I don't think there's anything he brings that Wilt doesn't. Robinson I wouldn't, because I don't think there's anything he brings that Hakeem doesn't. Ewing, great outside shooter, not enough to get involved in this group. Walton, not enough physically or otherwise. Mikan, likewise.

    PF: Bird.
    -Dirk, Rodman, Kemp, M. Malone, Duncan, K. Malone, K. Garnett.
    x-McHale, DeBusschere, E. Hayes, B. Williams, Pettit.

    .....With Russell not being a great offensive threat, you can sneak in a mediocre athlete like Bird here. He'll get killed on the boards. But he'll keep Russell honest on the perimeter on defense, preventing him from helping out Kareem down low and owning the defensive glass. Plus, I think he might have a real advantage on Russell off the dribble, which might be enough to actually win this matchup. Dirk I'd consider for a lot of the same reasons as Bird, and for some additional ones, but not for some others. Rodman I'd consider as an attempted carbon copy of Russell. Kemp I'd consider as an all-around superior athlete. Moses I'd consider as someone to just beat the hell out of Russell. Duncan I'd consider as a great now vs. then PF match-up. K. Malone I'd consider as a superior low-post scorer to Duncan. Garnett I'd consider as a superior athlete to Duncan.

    SF: Rodman
    -'Nique, T-Mac, Durant, Dantley, Pippen, Barkley, Baylor, Worthy
    x-R. Barry, Pierce, Havlicek

    .....LeBron is, don't forget, the most talented player to ever step on the court. Shutting him down is important. I'd roll Rodman out there in his prime. He'd man up LeBron as well as anyone else in history could. He'd counteract a lot of what Russell brings to the table. He wouldn't demand the ball (important). He'd probably operate at the 4 offensively, with Bird at the 3 (maybe they'd put Russell on Rodman, LeBron on Bird--doesn't really matter). 'Nique I'd consider, just because I'd like to see how a freak athlete of similar size would match up with LeBron. T-Mac in his prime I'd really like to see against LeBron. Durant we've seen against LeBron, and the results haven't been good.. but it could still be better than 'Nique or T-Mac. Dantley I'd consider as someone to out-think LeBron. Pippen is a wuss and I hate him, but the potential match-up is something you need to mention (I might also consider him running the point instead of Oscar with that lineup). Barkley I'd consider as a mean as hell dude to get in LeBron's face. Baylor I don't think translates to a matchup against LeBron, but you need to think of it. Worthy is interesting to think about v. LeBron. R. Barry I don't think could hang athletically. Pierce I don't think deserves to be in this discussion. Havlicek I don't think would look right next to LeBron.

    SG: Kobe.
    -Dumars, Miller.
    x-Drexler, Erving, Gervin, West, Iverson, Monroe, Maravich.

    .....I hate Kobe, but there's really no other matchup for MJ. Hopefully he'd be able to share the ball well enough to win. But someone who challenges MJ defensively. Who can slow him down offensively. There are few others. Dumars I'd consider as a shut-down dude. As someone who doesn't demand the ball, he might work well with Oscar too. Miller I'd consider as someone who could run around, make him tired, and knock down outside shots.. maybe guard him every once in a while. Drexler is basically a lesser Kobe in my eyes. Erving I don't think'd be able to guard him. Gervin either. West, I LOVE, but he's just too small. Ditto Iverson (but I don't love him). Same with Earl the Pearl (and just not really in this discussion). Maravich, I think, would just be a little out of his time.

    PG: BigO.
    -Isiah, Frazier.
    x-Payton, Kidd, Paul, Nash, Stockton, Archibald, Cousy.

    .....Need someone to match up against Big Magic. As much as I'd like a pass-first point guard on a team like this. There's no one who even comes close to Big O. Isiah you consider just for his heart and talent.. forget about his size. Frazier's got decent size, and I guess you could consider him as a shut-down and distribute guy. The fellas I wouldn't consider -- Payton, Kidd, Paul, Nash, Stockton, Archibald, Cousy -- what do they bring to the table that Zeke and Frazier don't?
     
  19. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2005
    Messages:
    16,220
    Likes Received:
    4,172
    Location:
    Michigan
    Crap. I'll have to re-do my simulation now...
     
  20. blueadams

    blueadams Banned - Sent to NBDL

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    156
    Make sure you have a balanced coin this time!
     
    BillLaimbeer likes this.

Share This Page