Point Forwards and other non-traditional playmaking

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Slippy, Jan 5, 2007.

  1. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Has a point forward scheme ever been successful? We do have a number of guys that can see the floor and pass pretty well but is the concept of a point forward/center inherently flawed?
     
  2. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    It's hard to make it work consistently, but there have been some teams who won while using it on occasion. Pippen did a decent amount of point-forwarding for the Bulls title teams. He was usually the one who ran the fastbreak for them, more than anyone else, including Jordan.
     
  3. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    That's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Pax / Armstrong / Harper would all bring the ball up sometimes, but generally only after made baskets and even then only part of the time.
     
  4. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    What about playing "medium ball" with 4 forwards and a tall shooting guard?

    We would be big in the guard spots and small in the center position.

    Point forward- Tay
    Shooting guard- Rip
    Small forward- Delf
    Medium forward- JMax
    Power forward- Sheed
     
  5. kpaav

    kpaav Team Captain Forum Donor

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    And with that line up playing zone the defense would be pretty good.
     
  6. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    What does Dirk Now. of the Mavs play?
     
  7. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    my memory may be flawed here, but i seem to remember the late 70s early 80s milwaukee bucks making it work pretty well (don nelson coaching, paul pressey at point forward)...does anybody else remember that?
     
  8. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    Depends on what you mean by point and forward.

    But I don't see any inherent flaw in having someone other than the smallest player on your team initiate the offensive sets, or even bring the ball upcourt.

    I am not at all convinced that Tayshaun Prince has the handle to be an effective primary ballhandler, although he could run the halfcourt offense probably better than Murray, Hunter, or Blalock - but not Hamilton, and possibly not Delfino. (did that make any sense?)
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I don't think Tayshaun should be initiating anything. It doesn't take Magic Johnson to swing a pass to the next open guy on the arc.

    When I see Tayshaun dribble, it scares me. When the clock is under 10 seconds and he starts doing that swing the ball around in a circle (wax on, wax off) in front of the defender, eventually getting him to bite, but not taking advantage and driving past him, only to jack up a bad shot, it makes me scream.

    I prefer Delfino in this role because once he passes, he actually starts moving and becoming part of the sequence of screens and cuts that compromise the set offense.
     
  10. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I was hoping that was more an effect of the situations in which he got the ball, rather than an inability to run an offense. He seems to make pretty good decisions on the break.
     
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I guess what I am saying is that I don't see Tayshaun as a superior ball handler or playmaker. On the break, he's typically the finisher, not the initiator.

    Tay can handle the ball, but in my opinion, not particularly better than anyone else. Rip gets crap for creating turnovers, but he also makes a lot of big plays. He's aggressive where CB and Tay seem more likely to hold it for a shot or make an incredibly safe pass.

    Safe passes are fine when guys are open, but as we saw in last year's playoffs, once teams practice for the pick and pop, and start really hammering Rip on his screen sequences, those safe passes aren't there anymore and the ball handler has to create opportunities by being aggressive passing or off the dribble (something neither Tay nor CB are particularly great at).

    I really thought that the Pistons were a better passing team at the end of the 2005 season than in the Flip era. Chauncey's TOs dropped when the ball got shared for a better shot. It seems that our offense is much more stagnant now than it was during those two years. As (I believe) ahb mentioned recently, our pace is way down. We're far from high octane. More like that fuel grade between premium and unleaded.
     
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    It's also hard to ignore the loss of Ben Wallace as a passer. With Ben, the option to pass in and get it back out was always there. I don't think we make any use of Nazr Mohammed in this regard, and Dice only makes passes with 0.5 seconds on the clock. ;)

    Sheed being on the block also opened up opportunities to pass from double teams. I rarely see Sheed doubled on the block anymore, and remember Matt Watson from DetroitBadBoys writing last season that at home, when the crowd starts chanting SHEEEEEEED, he always seems to take the shot.

    I'm not blaming Flip per se, I really think that our personnel is a bit of a mish-mash and we don't play with a lot of tempo because the only way they can play the way they want to play is to be deliberate and from my point of view, stagnant.

    Delfino's been able to do enough to stay on the court, and that has been really good for us. He comes from the international style of play where you take your shots within the flow of the offense and no one player dominates the ball unless he is able to consistently make shots or establish scoring position. Our "flow' has been really good with Blalock and Delfino on the floor because both are happy to provide touches to their teammates on the break and in the set offense.
     
  13. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I remember Anthony Mason playing kind of point forward, but it was merely an experiment that failed since Mason was too slow. I still don't know why the media referred to him as a point forward with his huge frame and all that.
     
  14. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Grant Hill was a good point forward.
     
  15. Terry T

    Terry T First Round Draft Pick

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    What kills me is that I think we have a unit that can up the tempo and really put teams away and Flip doesn't put them on the floor together. You know that I am talking about the Maxiell, Davis, Blalock and Delfino. Rebounds, shot blocks, intimidations, steals. Everything you need to start the break, two guys that like to push the ball and distribute, add Tay or Rip for another finisher.

    The Pistons build a lead, the other team gets back on their heels a little bit and you put this unit out on the floor. My bet is that more often than not these guys will bury the other team.

    I know that Flip is a highly skilled, intelligent basketball coach and I am just a fan that never played the game (busy playing hockey in the winter), but what am I missing?
     
  16. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Good post.
     
  17. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    This is one of the severe down-sides if JD makes any moves before the trade deadline. A whole different style of play with 2 (possible 3 starters leaving) might have to be developed next year. Delfino (if JD can make the right moves) might be a very valuable key for this new style.

    I say this knowing that JD does not have the organizational talent behind him to make this type of move a reality. The easiest scenario is to sign CB, but then what? Notice that tonight, SA, Suns and Dallas all have aggressive flows on the floor, especially the Suns.
     
  18. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    The point forward approach was successful in the Paul Pressey and Scottie Pippen era for several reasons.

    It presented huge mismatches for defenses. When someone 6-7 has the handle, passing abilty, and can create his own shot like a 6-2...6-4 guard, what is a defense to do.

    IMO, Magic was a point forward!!

    In Todays NBA with zone defenses a point forward`s options would be llimited if not totally eliminated.
     
  19. ahb

    ahb Bench Warmer

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    LeBron James's options don't seem too limited.
     
  20. Dlev59

    Dlev59 Bench Warmer Moderator

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    I know, Stern is making sure of that!!!
     

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