Preseason Pistons at Bucks ~ Oct 19th

Discussion in 'Preseason 2005/6' started by Zoso, Oct 19, 2005.

  1. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Dupree vs. evans and the bench.

    Evans was signed, I believe, with Wade in mind and to help our perimeter defense. The problem with Dupree is that it is hard to conceive of a solid role for him in the rotation. Many of our bench guys are showing they can play, but plugging them into productive (for wins and losses) roles may not be easy. Take Delfino. He should be handling the ball but that is what Arroyo is suppose to do. Delfino's shot is still iffy. I think Evans role should be as a defensive specialist and whatever offense we get is gravy. Take Darko. His offense is still not polished (probably because of lack of playing time). Early on, he too should come into the game as a shot blocker. Many other questions abound with the bench.
     
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Evans and Dupree on ball handling

    Someone disagreed with me last night on ballhandling of these two. Said it was good enough. But these two played 42 minutes combined, and got zero assists. Not good enough. These two were sharing guard and small forward duties, and did not manage a single assist between them in nearly a games worth of player minutes.

    Another poster kind of said he just wanted the bottom line on whether our bench or their bench did better. But its not quite so simple. We had several bench players do very well, but the unit did not work well together. At least, not as well as it could have played. Acker was the only guard played with the subs who had any ball handling skills. Just not enough. I surely would have liked to see this same unit with Delfino in there instead of Dupree. I bet Flip would like to see it too.

    I dearly love the fact that here we were in the 5th game of the preseason and the coach is playing two rookies extensively. Another poster seems to think we should start using the regular rotation players who will be seen in the regular season. But wait one moment. Who will those players be? Seems the better route is to keep auditioning people for roles. Getting the right people playing is far more important than establishing a rotation. Acker and Maxiell could end up being a large part of our rotation. If anything, maybe cut Dupree. Or at least realize no way he will earn regular rotation minutes at this point and just sit him on the bench; asking him to do just one thing the rest of the season: work on defense and be ready to play when and if needed. As far as his offense, pretty much limit to fast break dunks, his specialty.

    Other than that, the guys who played the bulk of the minutes last night, plus Dyess, Arroyo, and Delfino, are the guys we will be seeing in the regular season, in my opinion. The only question I see is who plays in what units, and what roles will each player have. There is still a lot to learn there, and I do hope Flip starts working on this.
     
  3. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Evans has offensive game too he is very good at tipping in missed shots. He is very good at taking people to the hole, and he can step out and hit the jumper.
     
  4. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I have to respectfully disagree in a couple of areas.

    Your definition of ball-handling seems to be a bit broad. You make a one to one comparison with assists and how one handles the ball which I think isn't accurate. Sabonis was not a great ball-handler, but he was a helluva assist man. I would think that ballhandling would be measured more by turnovers and the ability to get the ball up the court with plenty of shot clock. Having not watched a game yet, I can't tell you at this time what I think of Evans and Dupree's ball handling skills except I don't think they should be doing much ball handling in the first place.

    On the topic of continuing to use the final games for auditioning talent, I don't think that is a wise strategy. Especially if you want to start the season on all cylnders. Unless your plan is to concede the first couple of games until the set rotation is defined, I can't see the logic in this approach. I think it is important for Flip to set the tone early with this season to gain the confidence of the fans, the management, and the players in his system. Otherwise it will be the beginning of a long line of excuses as to why we are having issues which I'm sure no one wants to hear at this point in time.
     
  5. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Thanks fellas I absolutely looked right past saturday's game against Miami, how I don't know.

    As far as bench scoring, I didn't add up our bench players totals compared to their bench. I looked at the times of the game where bot coaches were playing bench vs bench (the 2nd and 4th qtrs) and the outscored us. If you just add up player pts we win, but both teams were mixing and matching starters and bench for alot of the game. So I'm wrong, but kinda right...if that's possible....ah what the......I WAS WRONG :P
     
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    You were just using a different methodology. ;)

    Actually, Maxiell and Darko didn't do much when they were in during the first Q. I thought that Milwaukee played the game to win (that's probably the thing they need to work on most, winning) and mixed up their lineup much more than the Pistons.

    I have no doubt that if we played Dice, Arroyo, Davis and Delfino we would have won that game.

    Still a little nervous that the effort seems to come and go at the halfway point of the preseason. I don't expect Tayshaun to leap into the stands or for Rip to take a shot in the face, but you gotta have pride and stop TJ Ford from running all over the place. He flat out embarassed some players last night.
     
  7. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Yep!!! It's absotively posilutely time to get ready for the real thing. This is a new system and they need to know what works and what doesn't with the guys you will most likely be out there with. Plus it wouldn't be good to start the regular season coming off a string of losses if that can be avoided.

    Plus I can't argue with Motown because he is a big time "STARTER" now with all of those posts!! Darth----> :P :first:<------Motown
     
  8. TBird

    TBird First Round Draft Pick

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    How We'll Use the Bench

    I'll be curious to see how the bench is utilized this year. Most of what we've seen in preseason has involved subbing as a group-very little mixing and matching with the starters (a bit like the way Carlisle subbed).

    Mixing subs with starters hasn't worked too well because they haven't played much together (really only Dyess played substantial minutes with the starters last year). Let's see if Flip tries to work a couple of bench players in with the starters in the next couple games. That should tip us off as to what he'll start out the season trying.
     
  9. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Was the bench minutes similar for both sides?
     
  10. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    very close detroit used their bench for 126, milwaukee 125. But thats with us not playing Dice, Arroyo, and Delfino. what i do know is that our other loss against dallas they played there starters a lot more than us.

    Personally i think thats stupid you should try to get your bench players better, and see which players will make the team, and rotation.
     
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    hi

    MoTown Pride, by no means do I equate assists numbers directly with ball handling. I look at who handles the ball in a way that helps get the team a good scoring op. This could be feeding the post, getting the ball to a guy who forces the defense to collapse, freeing up yet another guy outside. The guy who can start a fast break. The guy who can pass the ball to someone who then has an advantage to drive inside. A whole lot of scoring takes place as a result of a timely pass that is not an assist. And of course, there are assists too, also part of ball handling.

    However, if a guy is getting no assists, all preseason, this is just a hint that he can't handle the ball. In Evans and Dupree's case, just trust me, its not just the assist stats. Nothing they do leads to a teammate scoring. Instead, if they handle the ball at all, they either go for a shot or just bog down the offense. Or turn the ball over.

    Now, Evans I like a whole lot. He just can't do the job in the ball handling department. As someone mentioned to me the other day though, if Evans could also handle the ball, he probably would be making more money than we could afford. So its a good thing in a way he is not perfect. We can, for cheap, use him for an excellent defender, and a shooter. Just can't expect him to drive that ball to the hoop and kick off for a neat assist. So far, just seems not to be his game.

    Dupree shows a lot of promise as a defender. He is good at the end of a fast break. But in no area can he outdo Evans. This unfortunately includes ball handling. Dupree, for many teams, coud help. Just not ours. We can't put Evans and Dupree in the game at the same time cause that gives us too little ball handling. But does this mean Dupree is the one getting cut? Maybe, maybe not. There is still the possibility Hunter retires. Evans could get injured at some time during the season, and an athletic small forward like Dupree might come in useful, while Evans has been brought in to do what Hunter did best, guard guys like Wade.
     
  12. iamme

    iamme First Round Draft Pick

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    i'm watching the game taped right now........no one mentioned that Darko tripped over his feet again. i swear, he got to lead the league in tripping over his own feet. i think he's gotten a lot more confident, but still thinks to much out there. he's still not 100% comfortable/natural out there.
     
  13. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    hi

    MoTown Pride, different post on your other comment. Unless you know for sure what your rotation is going to be, no, its not time to start playing a set rotation. Yes, we know who the starters are going to be, and the starters do need to start to play more to get comfortable to Flip's system. But the bench? You can't tell me Arroyo has already solidified his spot over Acker, and no way you can dismiss the possibility of Maxiell breaking into the rotation.

    Finally, I don't know what you thought about Larry Brown, but he got one thing right. When he comes in and installs his new system, he does not focus that much on wins at first. Getting the team playing right is given more emphasis early. With Flip, he has a new team for him, and he has a lot of players who might be able to help. Getting it right, playing the right guys in the right roles, is going to have a greater impact on our record at the end of the season vs. a few wins we might get from getting the wrong rotation sharp.

    For one, having the wrong rotation will lose games vs. the right one. Worse, as the season goes on, and you see you blew it on the first try, you are going to have to shake things up. And lose games while you do maybe. Far better to get it right early.

    As for respect? Dumars will appreciate a coach going about in a methodical manner doing things right. Flip has 9 years already in the league. Not a rookie coach that has to prove anything.
     
  14. iamme

    iamme First Round Draft Pick

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    ok, i know LB isn't here anymore, but Darko needs to stop the catch and shoot at the college three point line like he's Michael Redd.
     
  15. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    LOL forgot about that...pretty hilarious.

    on a sidenote, at the Pistons' Kickoff Party today, i got Team Rookie's signatures...glynny, johnson, acker, and maxiel on my Pistons hat. threw in arroyo on their for good measure. i'll sell it to Lee for $500, i mean that's a steal for those 4 rooke future hall-of-famers :eyebrows: :P
     
  16. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Flip said he was absolutely dead tired out there because of all the minutes/practice, and the fact that it was the 2nd of a back to back. He said Darko was giving him the "take me out" look a couple of times during the game, but he kept him out there as a sort of "gut check". And if you think about it he hasn't had much of any time off since the summer league began, so his legs are probably pretty worn out. Hopefully the day off today gets him ready for Saturday against Miami. I wanna see him throw down on Zo :nod:
     
  17. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Have we entered the twilight zone???!!! I thought I just read Lee saying that we should keep Hunter over another player!! Lee, have you really come over to become a Hunter fan like most Pistons fans have been for years, or was that just a mental lapse?

    All in good fun Lee, just a little brain fart after reading countless posts of you classifying Hunter as a worthless scrub. In case you haven't noticed, Hunter is THE MAN in Detroit, and he will be on the squad as long as he wants to, from what I can see. The man is a defensive monster, and as epitomized in his quote from last year's Finals ("I ain't no punk"), the hardest-working guy on the Pistons besides maybe Ben Wallace. Ben and Lindsay are my favorite players exactly for that reason.
     
  18. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Funny I always associated ballhandling with dribbling. When I say, "that fella got handles", I'm never referring to his passing ability. Based on your definition of ballhandling also being associated with passing ability and court awareness, I can see where you would say that the aforementioned players are not adequate. I guess I will just have to wait and see to explore how much they "bog down" the offense.
     
  19. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Sure, I grant you that. Starters play, those bench players that have not solidified themselves for the team need to continue to battle for minutes, those who obviously have no place on the team (Glynny) should be let go. No more expirementing of bizaree lineups.

    Actually I am a fan of Brown, although I have my criticisms of him just like anyone else. I loved Brown as a coach, but he is not the best person to use as an example...he has more excuses when things don't go right than Dennis the Menace. I think the goal of any team is to be ready before the regular season starts and the games "count". I'm not in favor of risking any victories when the battle for homecourt advantage could be the difference of a game or two. We need to start off immediately with some "W"s.

    Flip has SO much to prove dude. He has been unsuccessful in the playoffs for most of his career and he is replacing a Hall of Fame coach on a championship team. He's already instituted a zone defense on a team that has been commited to a successful defensive scheme the last 3-4 years. Losing several years in the playoffs with argueably the leagues best player on a team that your friend runs for the past 9 years is not a formula for an induction into the basketball hall of fame. This is Flip's chance to show that given a great team he can win the big one. This is his golden opportunity.

    I will tell you this. If the Pistons start off dry and out of sync and sport an unimpressive opening record say.....3-7. Every ESPN basketball reporter, local Detroit columnist, the fan in the last row at the Palace, and big Bill Davidson will booooooooo his butt out the building. lol!

    All that being said, I think Flip will rise to the occasion.
     
  20. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Motown, I agree with you 100%.

    Flip has a lot to prove, but he definately isn't shying away from it. Taking over a team from a Hall of Famer that has been to 2 straight finals, in a city that LOVES its team isn't exactly flying under the radar.

    I give him a lot of credit for not taking the easier job with a team with low expectations. This is a great opportunity for Flip to shed his "can't get it done in the playoffs" label.

    I too think that he will rise to the occasion.
     

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