Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by 16 Mile, May 14, 2009.
I don't know if overcoming Curry's shortcomings is even possible.
Ron Artest..Vs..Real Growth
I wouldn't consider him for a number of reasons.
First is the Pistons are re-building not re-tooling. Artest will be 31 in November. The Pistons are realistically multiple years away from becoming an elite team again. Outside of the construction of the current Celtics, (an anomoly), elite teams are fundamentally constructed from the foundation up over numerous seasons of playing together, like the Pistons in 02, 03, 04 or like San Antonio. We had a core group developing when we essentially added Sheed putting us over the top.
We are in the deconstructing / reconstructing mode. We are assembling a new core. I think Artest is too old to add to a core that needs time to grow together before making a realistic longterm run. Sure Ainge bought himself and the Celtics rings by busting the bank to secure a fleeting moment. But that's not where Dumars is heading if he moves as pragmatically as his own history proves..
Second, Artest has never exhibited any leadership capabilities. He doesn't exude any class. He helped the Pistons secure one the most embarassing episodes in recent sports history. He doesn't have Piston DNA.
Third, personal commitment. He wanted to leave the NBA to become a Rap star. He plays b-ball because he has some natural talent along with size and it pays him better than anything else he will ever invest his time. But to me he's never exhibited the motivation for the game itself, like Zeke, or C-note, or Hamilton, or Tim Duncan, or Kobe, or Lebron, or Magic, or Kidd, or Grant Hill, or Dumars, or Dwight Howard, or Chris Webber or dozens of others.
That's taking nothing from his natural athleticsm. I think he's a gifted athlete and he's done exceedingly well. But I don't believe his heart, head and soul have ever been 100% in the game. He's a fairly effective hired gun. And he could help corral a guy like Lebron a bit in any jersey for any team, but the question is what good is that if the core of the team isn't seasoned enough to make a long term run? By the time we've got a nice multi-year run happening he'd likely be in his mid-30's when athleticsm leaks away faster than air from a ripped out tire valve.
If he was a proven team leader with a great b-ball mind and able to vocalize (captain) on the hardwoods it would be easier to justify putting him on the payroll. But if all he does is add cost and he's minimally effective to team wins and growth as a whole, doesn't it make more sense to grow someone else or buy someone cheaper and younger?
I don't think any one guy will ever stop LeBron. He's too gifted across the boards. LeBron will have to be stopped by a team. A team and better game plan. Obsessing over obtaining a "one man LeBron stopper" misses the point. It's our team as a whole that no longer exuded the energy, mental will or physical capacity to play with the elite teams in the league. We weren't getting any further in the playoffs no matter what team we were going to draw. The Cavs stuck a fork in us, but we were already done.
I think the question posed, "Ron Artest-Pistons DNA" is a nice thought provoker. But for my money, the only Piston DNA this guy has if any, is maybe a few skin cells that stuck to his back while lying on that table in November 2004....
Good post G-man
We have the money to re-tool. Also, there may be other teams that get into jams because of the economic situation, so we could get abnormally good deals.
Artest and Battier seem like the 2 team leaders in Houston.
Artest did voluntarily play in the summer vs. Jordan (ala the rib breaking episode), so he may have some love for the game.
Good post G-man. Made me re-think my position. We don't need someone like Artest joining the team at this time.
At the start of the season I would have said re-tooling but now its more rebuilding. Do you want to re-tool around Prince, Rip, Stuckey, Amir and Maxiel? One or more of them are going to be traded.
Thing is with the cap money and trade able players this can turn around pretty fast.
I'll add to the rest...great post.
This might be semantics, but I think a description of re-building and re-tooling, needs to be made clear.
Re-tooling to me is directional in fixing some semi-major adjustments which usually fill voids that involve no more than two positional moves affecting the starting line-up. This disregards the bench and coaching directions.
Re-building is a combined mixture of two major directions:
This is complete change involving 2+ starting players. As I see it, (in regards to the Pistons), we might be looking at a wholesale re-structuring involving the 3, 4, 5 and possibly the PG positions.
There is also a time factor present. It usually involves at least 2+ seasons to make substantial moves to finalize role responsibilities. Again, as I see it, the Pistons will need at least two seasons to stabilize team directions that will result in a .600 record in order to be taken seriously in the Eastern Conference Playoffs.
Adding to this above mixture you have other complex linkages:
Mixture of player movement from East to West. I see a continuum of strong player, coaching, and organizational movements toward the West. This has been the Piston's gift-horse for a number of years. I hope it continues.
Coaching directions will gain more momentum. As offensive schema's develop, more patterns gain advantage of speed: more refinement of roles. Offensive minded coaches will borrow offensive systems that demand active flexibility from the 4-5 positions. The 1-2-3 positions will be quick, aggressively probing and command accuracy from the 3 pt. line... ending high on the rim.
The bench develops more refinement. Roles become segmented. Added value is obtaining a two-combo type. You look toward the defensive, offensive and skills levels that continue the game plan. The bench becomes a separate coaching entity. Basketball is way behind the times with these coaching refinements. It should not be lost on most of us, that the key administrative assistant is your video-game analyst.
How does the organization adapt? The supreme goal is to gain, maintain, or accelerate values that create momentum for the touch of brass ring. With enough touches, you have gained the ability to learn. Insight to this process now involves the double loop method (Chris Argyris).
All aspects of involvement tumble the roll-of-the-dice. This is your risk factor. Most organizations (if they are to survive) need to understand three major levels (Learning Organizations; ISBN:1563271109, pg. 118):
Financial (can you afford the game)
Opportunity (vision, goals, perseverance and luck)
Political (using the components of power)
Risk reduction improves the probability of learning succeeding (pg. 119):
risk sooner, rather than later
and risk for a worthy cause.
And to finalize: there is the hybrid model. Everyone ready for this one?
"Alice knocked and rang in vain for a long time, but at last a very old Frog , who was sitting under a tree, got up and hobbled slowly towards her: he was dressed in bright yellow, and had enormous boots on.
'What is it, now? the Frog said in a deep hoarse whisper.'
Alice turned around , ready to find fault with anybody. 'Where's the servant whose business it is to anwser the door? she began angrily.
'Which door?' said the Frog.
Alice almost stamped with irritation at the slow drawl in which he spoke. 'This door, of course!'
The Frog looked at the door with his large dull eyes for a minute: then he went nearer and rubbed it with his thumb, as if he were trying whether the paint would come off; then he looked at Alice.
'To answer the door? he said. 'What's it it asking of?' He was so hoarse that Alice could scarely hear him.
'I don't know what you mean,' she said.
'I speak English, doesn't I? the Frog went on. 'Or are you deaf? What did it ask you?'
'Nothing!' Alice said impatiently. 'I"ve been knocking at it!'
'Shouldn't do that---shouldn't do that---the Frog mutttered. 'Wexes it, you know.' Then he went up and gave the door a kick with one of his great feet. 'You let it alone ,' he panted out, as he hobbled back to his tree, 'and it'll let you alone, you know.'
Through The Looking-Glass and
What Alice Found There
I like your post, but this particular point irks me a little. I would tend to think that hoping for weak competition is a sure road to failure. It could be argued that the mediocrity we are seeing now is a result of not feeling the need to get better over the past few years, since the competition's talent level was stagnating.
Artest would be great because Pistons could use his strength to give him the ball in the post and have a good spacing. He's a beast and it's very difficult to stop him from getting to the rim. Stuckey is not a great point guard but it will take a lot of pressure off him and give him more space. Ron adds toughness, some kind of leadership and he wants to win. He's a difference maker. I'm sure Stuckey will be fine and he'll develop as a point guard but he needs someone else who puts pressure on the D. Rip does it, Prince is to passive so it is really easy to shut down this team. Artest plays on both ends of the floor and fills the profile of a player i would love to see in Pistons' uniform.
I think he's the best free agent on the market. He's underrated and probably Pistons can sign him relatively cheap. I'm afraid Dumars wouldn't be able to get any post player and Ron can play there as well as any SF in the league. Stuckey/Rip/Artest would be a scarry matchup for any team in the league. Add a defensive C and Pistons can play tough, physical defense.
Artest wouldn't stop James on his own but it's easier to stop him as a team when you limit double teams and help defense to the minimum.
At this point I'm inclined to swing a deal for Battier... He was the Pistons lockerroom boy... Joe took him under his wings... they're tight... and so is Shanes defense.
Ron Artest will be a Houston Rocket next year.
And it probably won't be for "relatively cheap".
His attitude is top notch. And at this stage, I agree that he may be a better solution than Ron.
Gotta go with the guy who wants to be here.
Battier does what Ben did. Defend without fouling. It's a valuable intangible skill.
Well, it irks me too! You have had an organization that limited it's comfort zone toward wins and not quite enough desire to move up when the organization knew certain limits. Fear set in and the players personalities dominated.
The East is getting stronger and the Pistons weaker. The West has great young talent and knows how to develop it. It has stronger market stability and GM's that are more mature.
As transition time develops for us, it might be more comforting to see the rebuilding process mature new team relationships on a quicker scale. Playoff competition makes your stronger; abet, not with perhaps more advancing victories. This is the reason that I hope the Eastern teams will allow a marginal .500 club to make the playoffs. The lottery does not provide immediate help unless you are picking in the top five. Develop on what you have and hope competitive playoff pressure matures the talent on a quicker level.
Tay does that pretty well too.
Tay plays without fouling. Ex. "The duck"
Battier actually defends his man with his feet. He would probably be worth acquiring just so he could teach Amir how to do the same, since we don't have any coaches worth a darn.
There are not many players who can be team's leader offensively and deffensively. Probably he will play for the Rockets but never say never. His skillset amazes me. Some teams will be afraid to sign him so he's contract will probably be smaller because of his past. I think his contribution on the floor is worth more than 10-11 mln a year (I see him getting a contract in this range).
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