Rotations

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Lee356, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    a rotation

    This one is based on AS Blakely's observations so far at mlive.com. But I see Just Insane already posted it as his favorite rotation. And of course, this is a rotation I have been pushing since we got Arroyo last season to see, with the exception that Mo Evans replaces Ron Dupree in this one.

    Starters: CB, Rip, Tay, Ben, Dyess

    2nd unit: Arroyo, Delfino, Mo Evans (or switch Evans and Delfino, I think it will depend on matchups to some extent), Dyess, Darko.

    IL is Hunter and Dale Davis taking turns on, with the other being on the active roster.

    The other 3 players to complete the 14 man active roster are our three rookies, Amir Johnson, Alex Acker, and Jason Maxiell.

    Minutes break down for the season: (Total minutes available assuming 7 overtimes is 19,855)

    CB, Rip, Tay, Ben, and Sheed 2340 minutes each for the season. That is assuming 78 games each with a 30 minute per game average.

    Arroyo, Delfino, Mo Evans, and Darko get 1092 mintues each for the season. This is 78 games times an average of 14 minutes per game.

    Dyess gets 1404 minutes for the season.

    11,700 minutes for the starters.
    4368 minutes for Arroyo, Delfino, Evans, and Darko combined.
    1404 minutes for Dyess.
    Total = 17,472

    Left for the rookies, Hunter and Davis, 2383 minutes

    Hunter and Davis, 300 each. Thats 10 minutes in each of the last 30 games of the season.

    Left over for rookies: 1783 mintues.

    Each rookie gets about 600 minutes, which is 60 games times 10 minutes. This is plenty to keep them interested and improving.

    Next, the playoff roster. Maybe just 12. Thats Blakely's best guess at the moment, although he is not sure if maybe we can change who the 12 are for each series.

    I hope its true we can change per series, but here is a roster with just 12 guys.

    Acker is off the roster. Mo Evans is suppose to be capable of guarding point guards thru small forwards. Hunter does not make the team either. Just a numbers thing. Mo Evans basically takes his role on defense, while playing that D with 4 inches more height and an offensive game to go with the defensive game.

    Amir Johnson is gone off the list. Again, a numbers thing. Just no room.This leaves: (I will list starter, main sub, then anyone else who can play that position in no particular order)

    Point: CB, Arroyo, Prince, Delfino

    Shooting guard: Rip, Delfino, Evans, CB, Prince

    Small forward: Prince, Mo Evans, Delfino, Maxiell, Sheed

    Power forward: Ben, Dyess, Sheed, Maxiell, Darko

    Center: Sheed, Darko, Dale Davis, Ben, Dyess

    At first, it might seem this leaves us weak at point, but it does not. Delfino can run the point as well as anyone, while Rip can defend it pretty darn well. As a combo, Rip and Delfino can do everything needed. Delfino would bring the ball up and run the plays. On defense, Delfino guards the shooting guard while Rip guards the point. And thats the 4th option with Tay being the 3rd after CB and Arroyo.

    Last year this would be dangerous, as it might mean getting Rip in foul trouble by playing him at point defense. But this season, we are all set. Rip's replacements of Delfino and Mo Evans can fill in for him just fine at shooting guard, as can Tay. Maxiell playing small forward here is the key. If Maxiell can play some small forward when needed, to makes everyone else available for guard duty. A very flexible roster indeed.

    And finally, what are we "wasting in youth developent."

    The answer is nothing. Remember this, the idea is to ensure another title. Someone could get injured. With Acker who can play at either guard, and Amir Johnson who can play the forward positions, we got injuries covered. Not to mention we got Hunter if we had to use him.

    I would hate to see Darko injured, but Davis could probably step in and do well enough for us. Indeed, we could lose about 4 players to injury, as long as not at key positions, and still be quite ready to win it all.

    But to answer the numbers question. The time Amir Johnson and Alex Acker play this season, 1200 minutes, could be considered waste if we end up not using either in the playoffs this year. But there is next season to consider. And there is trade value that we add to these players by giving them some NBA experience.

    1200 minutes is 6% of the player minutes available for the season. Not to much to ask to help ensure wins in future seasons, increase trade values, and ensuring we have players ready to step in if an injury occurs. Oh, and Hunters 300 minutes too would be counted as waste. But again, nothing like having a proven vet around if the young guys (in this case Mo Evans) can't handle the job. (Or is injured during the season)
     
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    a rotation with sustitutions

    Arroyo, Billups, Evans, Dyess, and Sheed-posted by Dave over at detnews.com just now. Thats one five man unit we could see. Getting tired at this point in the evening, but I will work a bit on a substitution pattern where we might see this.

    Usual starters, CB, Rip, Tay, Ben, Sheed.

    Four minutes left in the 1st quarter, Arroyo comes in for Rip, Evans for Tay, and Dyess for Ben. But lets modify that a bit and say Dyess and Arroyo come in a couple minutes earlier than that. Anyway, for 4 minutes, this unit exists that Dave thought of tonight.

    To start the 2nd quarter, you need some more starters to go out, as they have played 12 mintues. Ben and Rip have rested 6 mintues already, so they come back in to rest Billups and Sheed. But wait, you don't want Ben at center, so you start the quarter with Darko instead.

    Now you have Arroyo, Rip, Evans, Dyess, and Darko.

    But no, trying to leave 2 starters in at all times. So instead, you start the 2nd quarter with:

    Arroyo, Rip, Evans, Ben, Darko.

    Now, Ben and Rip have had their rest for the half for the most part, but I am trying to keep them to just 30 minutes a game. They are both at 6 minutes played at this point with a target of 15 minuteseach for this first half. Tay has been sitting for 4 minutes at this point, and has 8 minute of the 15 targeted for this half. Sheed and CB are on the bench with no rest at this point and 12 of 15 minutes played for the half.

    Delfino has not got into the game, and I am targeting 7 mintues for him this half, and Dyess needs 3 more as his target is nine.

    Well, it gets a bit complicated at this point. And its late. Good nite all. I will finish this tomorro on another post.






     
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    a 12 man rotation for the regular season

    This is after watching the Milwaukee preseason game tonight

    Twelve guys who can really play. Thats a lot for one team. On this list will be good solid players on both ends of the floor: Billups, Arroyo, Acker at point. Rip, Mo Evans at shooting guard. Tay, Delfino, Maxiell at small forward. Ben and Dyess at power forward. Sheed, Darko at center. And no one past the age of 31. To this, add two guys who shore up your defensive depth. Dale Davis and either Dupree or Hunter. And finally, one spot for youth, Amir Johnson.

    Now, what about whittling it down to just 10 rotation players? Two five man units. Sorry, just no way to do it. Not one of these 12 guys should just sit on the bench this season. So Billups will just have to have his minutes cut a bit, while Arroyo and Acker split those backup point guard minutes somewhat. Last season, Hunter and Arroyo both played backup point while Billups got all kinds of minutes. Its doable. Some nights, Acker will be the guy, some nights Arroyo all depending on the matchups.

    Similarly, Delfino and Mo Evans are going to have to share some minutes at shooting guard while Rip is also kept fresh for the playoffs by having his minutes cut. Thats 6 guys in the backcourt.

    In the front court, you got Maxiell backing up Tay. And if Maxiell is occasionally too slow to guard that nights backup small forward, then you let Mo Evans do the job. And yes, occasionally you let Amir Johnson step in and play a few minutes at the end of the 1st quarter, or the end of the 1st half.

    Next, Ben and Dyess. Sheed and Darko. You got a lot of flexibility here as Dale Davis and Maxiell are around for 5th and 6th big men. Even Amir Johnson could add depth there in case of injury.

    And going the other way is just as promising. You could on occasion go big, although using Maxiell at small forward is really already going big a lot. But Sheed or Darko could play a bit of small forward with Ben being out there as the third guy. That is a lot of length indeed out there. Man, is this team going to be good.
    </B></B></B>
     
  4. max

    max All-Star

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    Too Close to call

    I really do not know whats going to happen. It could be and it is possible that Arroyo can be the odd-man out this year.
     
  5. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    It seems so far in the preseason the second unit plays better when left to themselves. When we start to mix in starters with bench it falls apart.
    Aside from Dyess. If Flip goes to zone how about this lineup.
    Tay, Dyess, Sheed, Ben and Darko. Let's see someone try and drive on them.
    I like this second unit CarArr, Evans, Max or Amir, Darko and Davis. Hunter sits. Delflino sits. Acker sits. Dupree sits. Except for emergencies.
     
  6. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Who is the 2 guard in this lineup? I'm assuming you have Tay running the point.
     
  7. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Quick guards will drive on Tay and Dice all day long.
     
  8. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Lee, re: your 10:13 post

    I really read only the first couple of paragraphs and if they play Darko as you are suggesting while giving `12 minutes a game to Davis, I sincerely hope they trade DMC. Going back to very few minutes a game and back to garbage time will set his career back immeasurably. And setting his career back at all is not in the best interests of the Pistons.

    So, under the conditions you suggest, I hope he goes somewhere else. Playing Davis those minutes at the end of his career is just not in the best interests of this team.

    I think that Dyce and Darko should get the major minutes after WallaceX2, and Davis and TMax get what are left. If it looks as though TMax is going to outdo Darko, so be it. But I would use those minutes to make Darko and/or JMax ready for the late season surge and the playoffs. To me, Davis is strictly backup to DMC/JMax.
     
  9. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Here's a lineup I'd like to see.

    Not that I think it would happen but.....
    PG-Delfino
    SG-MoEvans
    SF-Tayshaun
    PF-Rasheed
    C-Darko.

    This lineup is big, strong, fast and all defense, save Delfino.

    Delfino, Tay, Darko and Sheed are really good passers.
    Delfino, Tay, and Evans can really finish at the rim on the break.
    Delfino, Tay and Evans are about as good of perimeter rebounders as you'll find in the league.
    Rasheed is a good of a frontcourt defender as there is in the league, Darko is blocking shots very well, Tay and Evans have shown that they can block shots also.
    With the exception of Sheed it's also a very young lineup.
    All three players can shoot from the perimeter as far as the 3pt line, except maybe Darko. DMC has shown he can shoot from that far out w/out changing his mechanics, they just haven't dropped, same can be said for Delfino. Evans, Tay and Sheed have demonstrated in games that they can make it happen from beyond the arc.

    LEE356, ROTATION GURU...GIMME SOME FEEDBACK.
     
  10. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    MotPri, KCM

    What's in a name, does it matter on Dee who is the 2, it's a zone, if they drive pass Tay can they get pass Wx2? On Off Dyess is the 1st option with Tay at point. It's a big lineup, could it work?
     
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Alley oop rotation

    Here is my half-court alley oop rotation. 2 good passers who can spread out the D, 2 high flyers, and a bonafied banger (who also gets his share of oops).

    Billups
    Arroyo
    Evans
    Dupree
    Ben
     
  12. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    If you want to Oop why not Bup-Bup, Tay, JMax, Sheed, Ben,
     
  13. puertoricanballer

    puertoricanballer First Round Draft Pick

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    Big lineup

    Forgive my interuption, but I think what they are trying to say is a fast guard will make tons of easy points on fastbreaks, of course, to do a fastbreak you have to get the def reb, but the way I see it I agree speed will be a concern with your prosposed lineup. How are they going to rotate fast to cover the outside shooters? How is Tay going to respond to the traps and the pressure from smaller guards? Does he have the skills to be a PG at this level?:confused: Too many questions to answer.
     
  14. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Tay probably can handle that. My small line up: Carlos Arroyo, Maurice Evans, Rip, Tay, and Ben. We can get very easy baskets, and we got 2 great perimeter defenders in Tay, and Evans. Best defender in Ben, and a good defender in rip.

    Big lineup: Chauncey, J Max, Dice, Sheed, and Darko. Chauncey will manhandle almost any pg and play good defense. J Max can cram it in almost anyones face and he blocks shots, Dice, and Sheed can take you inside or out and both play good defense, Darko can drive you to the hole, post-up, and block shots. This lineup is a very good passing lineup too.
     
  15. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Rican

    JD likes bigs so I gave a big lineup. I don't even have our best players out there in Bup-Bup and Rip. You have to admit it would be hard to shoot over them. It would be a zone Dee probably standing around the key. I would take my chances against an opponent small lineup.
     
  16. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    wasn't this my joke lineup? remember when i first joined the detnews forums i had this 'big' lineup with ben playing shooting guard and then the 'small' lineup with like arroyo, hunter, billups, acker, and someone else lol...i wish i saved that one
     
  17. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    I'm free associating like everyone else. I'd love to see BaBaBen play SG. He'd, We'd sink or swim.
     
  18. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    On the right track

    You got to look at what a unit needs to function, and who has those skills. Not a bad unit at all you came up with. On defense, Mo Evans would guard the point guard, while Tay guards the shooting guard, and Delfino guards the small forward.

    On offense, Delfino plays the point, and brings the ball up better than anyone else on the team. His first option would be to take it right in himself and dunk it. Next option would be Evans, the Tay, Darko, and Sheed for dunks on the end of that fast break.

    If you get into a halfcourt set, you got Tay to help Delfino run things in the backcourt while Evans works around the basket. You know, if Delfino gets his shot to come around, and I believe he will, you got five guys in this unit who can all hit outside shots. (And all five guys can score inside.) Thats a ton of offense. Yep, I like it a lot. Keep it up. Give us more.
     
  19. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    A possible rotation, using 10 guys, but not in two distinct units.

    Billups, Arroyo, Rip, Delfino, Tay, Mo Evans, Ben, Dyess, Sheed, Darko.

    This is not to say Acker and Maxiell can't crack the rotation. But lets look at how we can mix and match these ten guys.

    Usual starters, but Dyess comes in for Ben 6 minutes into the game, while Arroyo comes in for Billups. This gives a unit of Arroyo, Rip, Tay, Dyess, Sheed.

    To start the 2nd quarter, Arroyo, Evans, Delfino, Dyess, Darko.

    Three minutes into the 2nd quarter, Arroyo and Dyess are done for the half and you have CB, Evans, Delfino, Ben, and Darko.

    The starters return for the last 4 minutes.

    Repeat in the 2nd half.

    Minutes go : Billups 30, Hamilton 32, Tay 32, Ben 30, Sheed 32
    and the subs:Arroyo 18, Evans 16, Delfino 16, Dyess 18, Darko 16

    For units minutes: 20 for the starters. 6 minutes for an intact 2nd unit. 12 minutes for the Arroyo, Rip, Tay, Dyess, Sheed unit. 10 minutes for CB, Evans, Delfino, Ben, and Darko.

    One last thing: How do you modify this to get that unit posted by KGreg, Tay, Mo Evans, Delfino, Sheed, Darko. Well, three of these guys are subs, so you just put Tay in for Arroyo and Sheed in for Dyess to start the 2nd quarter. To do this, play Dale Davis the last three minutes or so of the 1st quarter so that Sheed can be rested for the fast breaking. Also play Maxiell at small forward for three minutes or so to rest Tay at the end of the first quarter. Arroyo and Dyess would lose three minutes every time you do this, but that would not hurt them that much.

    If that unit is working real well, you can easily extend it without modifying the basic rotation much. CB would just get a bit more rest while Tay plays a bit more. Ben would get a bit more rest while Sheed plays a bit more. If Sheed and Tay play too long right here, Dale Davis or Darko can play the end of the quarter for Sheed while Maxiell or Evans or Delfino can play the end of the quarter for Tay. No problem.
     
  20. dthrush

    dthrush Second Round Draft Pick

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    starting 5

    A starting 5 Iwould like to see before the season is over would be CB(PG),Tay(SG),Darko(SF),Sheed(PF)andBen(C).This would mean that Darko had really come into his own an could handle the SF position.Just think of the problem's this big line-up would create.Rip could be the go too guy for whatever 2nd unit you like.
     

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