1. Football Picks Survivor is done for 2014. Congrats to billlaimbeer from The Pistons Forum

Rotations

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Lee356, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Flint
    1 month into the season

    Our rotation so far has mainly consisted of the starters playing a whole lot of minutes. Some progress over last year in this respect, but not a whole lot.

    Darko has played. Regularly and when the game counts. Just not a whole lot. He typically plays in the 1st half, but not the 2nd half except in blowouts.

    Delfino has played about every other game or so when the game counts and not a lot.

    Arroyo has pretty much established himself as out backup point. But not getting a whole lot of minutes.

    Dyess started out getting around 20 minutes a game, but his minutes have been reduced as his early season shooting slump continues.

    Evans initially was getting pretty good minutes too, but also has had his minutes cut as of late as Flip is seeing that his ball handling and rotating on defense is not improving so fast.

    Maxiell has only gotten garbage time.

    Davis has barely played.

    Amir Johnson and Alex Acker have yet to dress.

    Last report says Hunter is 1 to 2 months away yet from coming back. Although his surgery was minor, they now say the damage done by that bone chip, over a prolonged period of Hunter enduring it, did a lot of damage that will take a long time to heal up.

    Several blowouts, one the bad way, have contributed to keeping the starters minutes down on average. But in close games, our starters don't get much rest.

    Lets review each player to look for changes in the vets, and what the young guys have. Starting with Ben Wallace. Ben is shooting his free throws better. He gets involved in the offense, but generally this is in the first half of a game, and is completely out of existence in the 2nd half. He is showing no signs of having a better shot from the outside to go with the improved free throw shooting.

    Sheed has definitely been used inside more so far this year. But he is also hitting his 3's pretty darn well too.

    Tay is still scoring like he left off last half of last season. He is aggressive a lot. I believe his rebounding is down, though I would have to check the stats to be sure.

    Rip is getting more picks from his teammates than ever. He is still going inside. Still looking to drive and dish here and there. His shooting range has definitely gone right out beyond the arc. At the moment, he is shooting about 50% on 3's. None to shabby. His defense definitely looks improved. He has always been a very good defender of point guards. Now he is doing a lot better on shooting guards.

    CB has not changed much. Except in one respect. He is more relaxed out there. If he feels the urge to launch a three, he does. And no one gives him a bit of grief about it. What does this do? With Billups being much more a threat to launch a three now, players are playing up on him a lot more. And this loosens it up for Billups to find assist opportunities. His assists are up because of this. His turns are down for a similar reason. If the other team packs it in, CB is no longer told to force the issue inside. He is allowed to instead either shoot or run a play to get an outside shooter a shot.

    Dyess is simply not hitting his shots. Sometimes he looks pretty good out there, like his knee problems are long forgotten. Lots of rebounds, very active on defense. But the shot simply is not falling, regardless of how good he is looking otherwise. Still early in the season and lets all hope this is just a bad blip in his career. A very short blip.

    Arroyo has shown a lot of capability to shoot and a lot of capability to dribble right to the basket and score. Even if a big is there that he has to shoot over. And he can run the show, very capable of seeing all that is around him and make good choices. And his defense has looked pretty darn pesky. Basically, just not much not to love.

    Evans has shown us he can hit threes. He can really get up for a rebound. He is good at guarding physical point guards. But he has also shown he can't handle the ball none too well, not move well without the ball. Plus, we have often seen his height truly limits his ability to guard some stronger small forwards.

    The rest of the players so far have not played enough to comment on.

    The main thing to change right now is backup small forward. Player X needs to take this role. Evans, Delfino, and maybe Acker can fight for backup guard minutes. Maybe Delfino can be that small forward. But it has got to be someone other than Evans. We need more height there.
     
  2. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,155
    Likes Received:
    582
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    Good post Lee.

    I wish they would find a way to get Maxiel in there somehow.
     
  3. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2005
    Messages:
    2,993
    Likes Received:
    54
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    I agree. Good post.

    ..but Carlos Arroyo and defense in the same sentence is about as contrary as saying Don King and honesty.
     
  4. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Flint
    Yep, Tay's rebounding is off

    In each of the past two seasons, Tay has been rebounding at a rate of 6.9 rebounds per 48 minutes. This season so far, thats down to 5.1 rebounds per 48 minutes of playing time. That is a 26% drop.
     
  5. detteam

    detteam All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Troy
    And his PT is up from 36.1 to 38.1 MPG. Tay needs a break, but he ain't gettin it. Where is the bench help we thought would come along with Flip?
     
  6. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Flint
    Some possible rotations we could try at this point

    Each of these replaces Evans.

    Usual starters, CB, Rip, Tay, Ben, Sheed. Arroyo backs up CB directly, and Rip by having CB play some shooting guard. Delfino backs up Tay. Dyess and Darko round out the unit. This simply gives a lot more ball handling to the 2nd unit vs. when Evans is in the game.

    Next, same starters. Arroyo backs up CB. Delfino backs up Rip. Maxiell backs up Tay. Again, Dyess and Darko round out the 2nd unit. This idea adds another post up player to the 2nd unit, and has two guys in Arroyo and Delfino who can handle the ball well enough to set up Maxiell, as well as Dyess and Darko, in the post. A lot of people question whether Maxiell can play small forward. But then again, Corliss Williamson played a lot of small forward for us and was slower than Maxiell. I am not worried about it. Just like Corliss, Maxiell will make up for his lack of speed by giving us a defensive presence inside. Of course, Maxiell will be much more of a defensive force than Corliss was by far, and a far better rebounder.

    Next, same as last paragraph except use Amir Johnson instead of Maxiell. Amir Johnson is raw. But he not that raw. For a guy just out of highschool, he is pretty ready to play. And he is very quick, has 6-10 height. 220 pounds. You gain rebounding, shot blocking. A scorer around the basket. He would probably be in foul trouble a lot as he learns the game. But we have a deep bench so that should not stop us from trying this.

    Next, same starters. Arroyo backs up CB. Acker backs up Rip. Delfino backs up Tay. Dyess and Darko again round out the 2nd unit. As Acker can handle the ball pretty well, this unit has a lot of good ball handling capability.

    Next. Same starters. Arroyo backs up CB. Delfino backs up both Rip and Tay. Dyess and Darko round out the 2nd unit. This one pretty much substitutes Delfino for Evans from what we are currently using. Delfino adds some ball handling, maybe a bit more scoring, and overall probably is a slightly worse defender. But Delfino is quite a bit taller than Evans despite the height listings, and Delfino has 10 to 15 pounds of weight over Evans. You get a taller defender. Rebounding would not change any from one player to the next. You do lose quickness. Delfino is not going to chase a guy like Arenas around for you.

    Next, play Dale Davis some or Darko more and move Sheed over to small forward for at least a percentage of each game. How about a Sheed, Dyess, Darko front line. Arroyo and Delfino in the backcourt.
     
  7. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    9,942
    Likes Received:
    622
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Lunas, NM
    I think Amir J. is the answer at SF. The SF starters we run up against are just too good, what about BBen at SF. If this is our only Accilhles Heal I think we can compensate for that.
     
  8. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,155
    Likes Received:
    582
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    :wacko::faint2::der::tinfoil3::twitch:

    I know...it's my own damned fault for reading it, but I was bored.
     
  9. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,155
    Likes Received:
    582
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
  10. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Flint
  11. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,155
    Likes Received:
    582
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    That's the whole thing that you do not seem to want to understand...or are incapable of understanding.

    Intelligent people do not need to deal in "absolutes". You can give praise and still find fault in some areas.

    Disclaimer: This post is not intended to be offensive.
     
  12. detteam

    detteam All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Troy
    lee

    Stop beating around the bush...who do YOU want to have Mo's minutes?

    I've seen much Mo bashing from you, but no solution to the problem you perceive in his playing time. Is it Delfino or Acker or what?

    Instead of raggin' Mo, how about building a case for your favorite?

    Cut the crap! What are you getting at?
     
  13. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Flint
    Go read the thread

    I just posted several possible rotations leaving Evans out. What, about 4 or 5 posts back from this one.
     
  14. detteam

    detteam All-Star

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,634
    Likes Received:
    537
    Location:
    Troy
    Yes, lots & lots of rotations. Why do you wish to leave Evans out? Who do you want to get his PT? Why? Build a case for your favorite(s) instead of bashing Mo.

    You obviously have an agenda. What is it, besides dumping on Mo? State your case in plain English....please.
     
  15. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,449
    Likes Received:
    450
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Absolutes

    "Only Siths deal in absolutes" - line from the last Star Wars flick.

    Actually I have been pleasently surprised with Mo Evans play so far. Still not convinced that he is the correct choice over Deflino but from what I was expecting Evans has been better than I thought he would be.

    May not get assists but he has been contributing on the boards. Not a bad shooter either. What do you expect for a guy making slightly more than the min? No one said he was going to be an all-star.

    Bottom line - Evans is better than Dupree so Dumars made the right choice.
     
  16. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Likes Received:
    861
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    True. He seems like a decent fit for defending the 2. Definitely an upgrade. Mo and Dyess makes Arroyo more valuable as both need him to get them the ball.
     
  17. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,155
    Likes Received:
    582
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    An absolutely astute observation on the Star Wars line, Max. :nod:

    Yeah, Evans is ok for now. Like detteam said, "Who would we put in instead, right now"? I'm hoping that once the Pistons stop playing the majority of their games on the road they will have a lot more opportunities to try out guys like Delfino and Maxiel.

    There should be some lopsided victories at home or at least a few games where they can afford to try out a "new" guy out for a few minutes without risking a "W".
     
  18. max

    max All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    Messages:
    7,449
    Likes Received:
    450
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    my bunker in the Carribbean
    Home Stretch

    Big home stretch comming up. 10 out of the next 13 after the next 2 road games will be at home. Should be a good opportunity to tweak things on the bench. I am hoping Delfino gets more time. He may make some mistakes out there but he can really bring some energy into the game. Those mistakes will filter down with more PT.

    Not sure about Maxiel. I just have not seen him play enough to really get a good read on him. When Hunter comes back in early Jan Maxiel is probably the most likely player to take his place on the inactive list.
     
  19. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2005
    Messages:
    12,155
    Likes Received:
    582
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Land of the Spuds.
    As President of the "Jason Maxiel Hall of Fame" club (JMHFC), I'm afraid I cannot allow that to happen.

    **Picks up the red Bat-phone and calls Flip**
     
  20. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2005
    Messages:
    4,504
    Likes Received:
    645
    Location:
    Flint
    Been two months of games already, a rotaion

    We got January, February, March, and most of April yet. Basically, one third thru the schedule.

    According to Flip, we were not to see Davis much nor Hunter until the 2nd half of the season. Thats looking to be true in that neither Hunter nor Davis have played hardly any yet. Last we heard Hunter might be ready in two weeks.

    Our starters continue to play a lot of minutes. Not really that many blowout games to keep the averages down.

    The bench is not settled at all. Flip apparently has a theory that if us fans have no idea who is going to play in the 2nd half of a game, then neither does the other coach. Pretty helter scelter so far. Dyess has been the one constant this past month. His shot came around and his minutes are back up.

    Just this last game, for the first time Delfino played over Evans in the 2nd half of a game. Still no games where Evans has simply sat out so Delfino could get some major minutes in a game.

    Arroyo has pretty solidly established himself as our backup point, but no progress from last month in getting him more minutes.

    Darko dropped out of the rotation. The info put out from Flip on that has been unliable. First he said Dale Davis and Darko would take turns depending on matchups. Neither have played hardly any though. Dale just a bit. Darko none other than a little garbage time.

    When asked about an observation on Darko not doing his all in garbage time, Flip agreed rather than back up his player. More recently, on December 22, Flip gave an intervies on the Fan, which can be heard at mlive.com, in which he said Darko had a good attitude at the moment and that Darko would be getting another chance to contribute.

    Evans has shown little ability to act as even a situaltional player as far as his defense goes. We have seen in a few recent games some ball handling ability here and there which had been totally missing earlier in the season. Maybe thats progress, but this last game Evans just got 6 mintues. Will that be a trend? Sometimes, its not about the player, but the players competition. Delfino just might have Evans beat in too many areas. One thing Evans has done very well in is offensive rebounding.

    CB contiues his extraordinary assist spree with few turns. His 3 shooting remains on fire. Just basically not much to dislike. Tay continues to be aggressive on scoring but light on rebounding. He continues to statistically our most important player. Ben continues to be our 2nd best in that regard. Lately, he looks really healthy after having had some foot trouble. Sheed continues to hit an amazing percentage of 3's while doing plenty of post word too. Rip is transforming himself into a spot up shooter and a guy who goes inside a lot. He can still hit the midranger too, but the last couple of games or so has been getting away from that. Maybe he is tired from all the running?

    Acker and Johnson have not dressed for a game yet, and Maxiell has not seen a minute of non-garbage time.

    Here is what I would like to see right now.

    Usual starters. 2nd unit of Arroyo, Acker, Delfino, Dyess, Darko.

    To that, I would like to see Maxiell get some of Delfino's minutes at small forward on occasion, and some of Dyess' minutes at power forward on occasion. And Amir Johnson getting 4 minutes here and there at small forward too. Sometimes, Delfino can move to shooting guard to accomodate this.

    Evans? Don't quit playing him. But reduce his minutes to a spot role. The guy has got to work on his defense extensively before going back to being a regular part of the rotation. Evans is a young, promising player. Just like any such player, I would not want him to just stay on the bench all the time. He would still need to get into like every third game to see how his practice is coming along.

    Hunter and Davis can just sit on the bench until the last 20 games of the season. After that, let them play to get ready for the playoffs. If both are needed.

    I can see the following for a 12 man playoff roster. It leaves out Evans and Davis and Amir Johnson.

    Billups, Arroyo, Hunter, Rip, Acker, Tay, Delfino, Maxiell, Ben, Dyess, Sheed, Darko. Starters and 2nd unit as per above. Defensive specialists are Hunter and Maxiell.
     

Share This Page