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Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Lee356, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Playoff roster

    You know, I say forget the vets, Davis and Hunter. I believe we can win this thing without them.

    Instead, go with this playoff roster, and start playing everyone on this playoff roster some minutes to get them ready to play.

    Billups, Arroyo, Rip, Acker, Tay, Delfino, Maxiell, Amir Johnson, Ben, Dyess, Sheed, Darko

    It may be a bit of a struggle to get by Miami without Hunter. But look, if you play Hunter a lot at the end of the season, it will just cut into Arroyo's minutes. Having Arroyo fully ready might be more important, not to mention getting some time for Acker to play too.

    We just beat Miami without Darko or Davis getting off the bench. This roster still has Darko's 6 fouls. Further, it still has the depth of Amir Johnson and Jason Maxiell at power forward to mitigate any foul trouble to our bigs.

    By going this route, we not only can beat Miami and SA, we get stronger for next year too. Basically, on our way to a dynasty. I say get started now. The guys who won't be around next year, drop them right now.
  2. detteam

    detteam All-Star

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    You better go to the ER...I think you've overdosed on Nyquil.

    IRREGARDLESS of our excellent start without Hunter & little from DD, advocating leaving them off the playoff roster along with Evans in favor of 3 rooks & Darko (a rook wannabe) makes no coaching and/or dynasty sense.

    SA adds 2 great vets...and you want us to dump ours?

    Don't count your chickens...there will be no dynasty without getting the title as a first priority this year.

    The roster you are more likely to see is CB, Rip, Tay, Sheed, Ben, Dice, Hunter, Arroyo, Evans, Delfino, DD, & JMax. That's right...no Darko. In the playoffs you gotta have heart.
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Two vets for SA

    Neither of which is probable for being on the SA roster next season. Ditto for Horry. That team is going to be in serious rebuilding mode after we kick them off the top of the mountain. (Assuming Flip gets it right and starts playing Darko.) The Pistons on the other hand, assuming Flip gets it right and goes with the youth, will be all set for about 4 straight years with the current roster. Dynasty.

    You say Darko does not have heart. Purely opinion on your part. What Darko has is loads of talent Flip needs to bring out to our advantage. Go to work Mr. Saunders.
  4. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    another rotation

    I have suggested this before. Now that I have seen how bad a defender Evans is, I am more for this one than ever.

    Usual starters.

    Arroyo, Delfino, Maxiell, Dyess, Darko for the 2nd unit.

    This leaves Acker and Amir Johnson, one guard and one big as extras.

    Both Arroyo and Delfino have been coming up as better defenders than we envisioned at the start of this season. Maxiell might not be able to guard small forwards that well in this league, but he can't do worse than Evans. Meanwhile, he is going to give us a lot of beef inside on defense.

    On offense, Maxiell becomes our first option on the block. Dyess next. Defino driving in the next. Then Darko. And with this unit getting lots of time, Arroyo will get enough shots to get that going.
  5. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    playoff rotation

    I guarantee that these Pistons will not play in the playoffs this year:

    Maxiel, Darko, Amir, Acker

    That means Amir and Acker will be off the playoff roster and it is a coin toss on whether Maxiel or Darko are on the playoff roster. In the playoffs, where the rotations are shortened, it doesn't really matter anyways who is the 12th guy.
  6. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Are you sure about that? What if you want to actually win

    When we won the whole thing, we had 11 guys help out. Some would argue it was 12, but that would be counting Ham, whom I don't.

    Last year, yes, Brown shortened things up. And we lost a series we would have won if he had a few more players in his rotation. Arroyo, Delfino, and Darko.


    This is the wrong thread to go to in depth on that Championship team. Feel free to start a thread on that if you feel you want to challenge my contention that our depth, using 11 guys, won that 'Ship for us.
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Earlier posts in this thread

    People gave their opiniopns about what you need in a rotation. And they gave opinions about what Evans would provide in our rotation.

    Unfortunately, the one thing we liked the most about the prospect of having Evans on this team was defense. Just not there. No footwork /ability to stick with his man.

    We got Davis, supposedly for a Shaq stopper. In the preseason, we saw no clue that Davis could even begin to guard Shaq for us. In our win over Miami, Davis just sat on the bench.

    Hunter I can see making the playoff roster this year. If he can get back to 100% One criteria for not needing Hunter, that Evans could do the job on Wade, has not happened.

    On the other hand, it looks like Shaq has definitely lost something. Miami might just not be that much of a threat to us. We still have a few games to go against them, so we have plenty of time to figure this out.

    Worst case, Shaq gets better, enough so that Miami beats us if we don't ahve a 4th big in the rotation. Darko is good enough to be that 4th big. We do not need Davis on the playoff roster.

    Darko can also be an emergency big against Duncan, something Davis can't do.

    So I see it going to ways. Either all youth, no Evans, Hunter, nor Davis, or Hunter makes the squad.

    If Hunter makes the playoff roster, then one of the rookies won't make it. Acker replaces Evans, so he is in. So its either Amir Johnson or Maxiell. Lets see them play a bit and see what they got.
  8. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Exact minutes for now.

    Ok, we are no longer on pace to beat Chicago out for best record ever. I just checked. All our starters are at about 35 to 37 minutes per game at this point. Too much. Time to rest them a bit, and get our bench up and running. This does not mean Hunter nor Davis, two vets who at most will come in as defensive subs in the playoffs. Which means they don't have to be perfect on the offensive end. It would help of course, but you can go in to guard Shaq and and put every ounce of energy you have into that. Same with Hunter on Wade. If Hunter is in to guard Wade, let him solely just do that, maybe provide for an outlet for offensive sets up top. Little more than that on offense.

    As for Evans, hey, we picked him up as a defensive specialist. For the mid-third of the season, same as Hunter and Davis. Sit on the bench.

    Ok, starters, 30 minutes each. Less if a blowout. Thats 12, 12 and 6. All of the first and 3rd quarter. The last 6 minutes of the game. If we have a 14 point lead with 6 minutes to go in the game, let them sit. If it gets tighter later, send the starters in.

    So, lets assume that one out of 4 games, we blow the other team out of the water. A good bet as everyone will be fresh and ready to go. Not to mention the fact that since the starters will be playing all their time together, they will be oh so much more efficient at destroying the other team.

    30 + 30 + 30 + 24 = 114 / 4 = Lets call it 28 mintues a game average for the starters for the next 30 games.

    Note, for the last third of the season, the starters begin to rev up, increase their minutes, starting to peak real well in the first round, and peaking fully by the end of that first round.

    At that point, it just depends on what it takes to win each series. Play the starters as much as you have to win the series. Preferrably in 4 games. Yes, more practice is nice, but injuries can be avoided by a quick finish.

    Ok, there are 240 player minutes in an NBA game. Our starters, for this middle third of the season, will be playing an average of 28 * 5 = 140 of those. This leaves 100 minutes per game for the bench. This is quite a change from the about 60 mintues per game the bench has been getting.

    The bench plays the 2nd quarter, and the first half of the 4th quarter. There are 15 guys on the roster. 5 starters, and 3 guys sitting out this mid-third of the season (Hunter, Davis, Evans.) This leaves Seven bench players to get minutes. You start with each of them getting the same minutes, 100 / 7 = 14 minutes per game. For the mid 3rd of the season, Dyess just stays at 14. Why? We know what he can do already. Let him take it easy to an extent and rev it up down the stretch. Remember, this is his 2nd full year after a knee surgery, and he and his knee too went thru that so so close repeat try. Why push it?

    Ok, you want to identify the 5 guys who you want to play those 6 minutes in the 4th quarter. I see a few ways to go on this, but I believe Arroyo, Acker, Delfino, Dyess, Darko are our best bet for that time. This unit has three capable guards in it, and should do just fine. However, instead we are going to go with Maxiell here, not Acker. Its just not easy to play both Amir and Jason up front at the same time. This separates the two a bit. ( So thats Arroyo, Delfino, Maxiell, Dyess, Darko)

    Ok, Acker and Johnson each play the whole 2nd quarter. And they always play in any garbage time to make up for the fact that they only get 12 minutes a game usually. With 6 more minutes each 4th game from garbage time, it will get them close enough to 14 minutes per game.

    Ok, lets just try something. Lets see how close we can keep our sub unit looking pretty much the same, patterning after the unit from the 4th quarter. How the minutes come out exactly, that can be fudged a bit later.

    The 2nd quarter starts with:

    Acker, Delfino, Amir Johnson, Maxiell, Darko.

    This unit played 5 games together in the summer league. Why not give them a bit of time together to start.

    Ok, after 6 minutes, Delfino, Maxiell, and Darko have all had their share of minutes pretty much. Target is about 13 actually per player in a non-blowout game. Delfino is easy enough to replace. Arroyo comes in for him, giving us an Arroyo, Acker backcourt. Dyess can come in for Darko at center. Again, no problem. But this leaves no one to come in for Maxiell. So Maxiell, who is our first round pick afterall, gets to play a few more minutes. Next night, Dyess comes in for Maxiell instead, giving Darko the extra burn.

    Ok, so thats Arroyo, Acker, Amir Johnson, Maxiell, and Dyess for the 2nd half of the 2nd quarter.

    The next night, that goes to Arroyo, Acker, Amir Johnson, Dyess, Darko for those 6 minutes.

    Stick with this for 10 games. Eliminate one player out of the rotation amongst these 7 bench players. Either Acker, Maxiell, or Johnson. But that guy just goes down to 6 minutes average, not all the way out of the rotation yet.

    Ten games later, eliminate one more. But again, this 2nd player goes to 6 minutes, not completely out of things.

    For the last 10 games of this stretch, you now have whoever made it among the three rookies and Darko, Arroyo, and Delfino playing an average of about 17 minutes a game when you include garbage time. Remember, Dyess is staying at 14. And the two guys with 6 minutes each. Mind you, a guy eliminated in round one might get back in in the next round. So if it was Amir Johnson who originally was eliminated, he still might be the guy who makes it in the end to stick with the rotation.

    Now, you are into the last third of the season. You make a decision on which 10 guys to include regularly in your rotation. At this point, Arroyo, Delfino, and Darko are at risk of not being amongst those 10 guys. Everyone had a fair enough shot at playing time. Time to go win a championship.

    As the regular season draws to a close, you still have an established bench unit, but it slowly sees the starters playing amongst it more and more as their minutes ramp back up to around 34 minutes a game as the playoffs start.

    The last 10 games, Davis and Hunter get 10 minutes per game, if they are going to be on the playoff roster. If not them, which ever two players besides your top 10 get those minutes to prep for the playoffs.
  9. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Probably my last post here for this month.

    Pick it back up in yet another month after we have some more data in to talk about. One last thought. This does not mean I don't like Arroyo, but here is a rotation without him in it.

    The Pistons could go big. Add in Maxiell and Darko to the players Flip is currently playing, subtracting Evans and Arroyo.

    Usual starters.

    With 4 minutes to go in the 1st quarter, Dyess and Delfino come in for Sheed and Billups.

    This gives the following unit for 4 minutes: Rip (playing point defensively but shooting guard offensively.), Delfino (playing point offensively, shooting guard defensively.), Tay, Dyess, Ben.

    The 2nd quarter starts with Billups, Delfino, Maxiell, Dyess, Darko. Delfino continues to play point on offense, letting Billups be a spot up shooter at shooting guard. And if the offense bogs down to a halfcourt game, Billups takes over the point guard duties as needed. The main thing is that Delfino is bringing the ball up, and is the first option, attacking the basket if the other team is caught unawares. Plenty of post up play here.

    For the last 4 minutes of the 2nd quarter, we play Rip, Delfino, Tay, Ben, Sheed.

    First half minutes are CB 16, Delfino 16, Rip 16, Tay 16, Maxiell 8, Ben 16, Dyess, 12, Sheed 12. Darko 8.

    3rd quarter starts with usual starters. Six minutes into the 3rd quarter, Delfino comes in for Rip. Darko comes in for Ben.

    This gives a unit, for 6 minutes, of CB, Delfino, Tay, Sheed, Darko.

    To start the 2nd quarter, Rip, Delfino, Maxiell, Dyess, Ben. Now we get to see what happens when an opposing team sees two Ben Wallaces out there at the same time. (If still conscience that is. They will probably faint from fear.)

    For the last 6 minutes, the starters are back in.

    Minutes for the 2nd half go CB 18, Delfino 12, Rip 18, Tay 18, Maxiell 6, Ben 18, Dyess 6, Sheed 18, Darko 6.

    For the game, the minutes go CB 34, Delfino 28, Rip 34, Tay 34, Maxiell 14, Ben 34, Dyess 18, Sheed 30, Darko 14.

    This is a 9 man rotation. Arroyo can be kept minimally involved by occasionally taking some minutes from CB or Delfino mid 2nd quarter. I do not want to see him fall out of the rotation completely. But by playing Arroyo a bit less, we can avoid matchups that do not favor him.

    Thats 10 players. Assuming Hunter gets healthy, he would be the 11 player on the roster. And since depth at center is ever so important, Davis would be the 12 man for the playoff roster.

    If Hunter is not healthy, we have a choice of Evans, Acker, or Amir Johnson for that last spot. And it woud be Acker most likely, although I would surely like to see how well Amir Johnson is doing.

    For Amir, it would be a simple thing, in this scenario, to just give him a shift here and there instead of Maxiell playing.
  10. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Flip's new plan

    At freep.com, they have an article that states Flip is soon to change the way he uses his bench. He says he is going from using matchups to using his watch. Basically, making sure that the bench players stay out there long enough to get comfortable. Lets all keep our eyes open for any immediate changes.
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    A playoff roster based on trading Davis and Evans to NJ for Cliff Robinson.

    Arroyo, Billups, Hunter, Acker, Rip, Delfino, Tay, Ben, Dyess, Sheed, Darko, Cliff.

    I do not know what Cliff makes, as Patricia's does not have the salaries posted at the moment, and they don't have his contract listed either at the moment.

    Assuming it can work, I think it works well for both team. The only scary part is you make NJ a good team by giving them a legit rebounder.

    But we get the guy we want, a guy who still gives Duncan fits.

    Darko can play just enough vs. Shaq to get us by Miami, and then with Cliff, we are all set there too. And Hunter will help us out with Wade assuming he gets fully back to good health.
  12. max

    max All-Star

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    Lee accroding to Hoopshype Cliff is making 2.5 mil and has a team option for next season for another 2.5 mil.

    I don't know. He is 39 years old. Only averaging 5.5 PPG in 22 mins. Is his defense still there?
  13. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Yes

    Cliff can still play D. And if we got him into the playoffs with a bit of rest, he might surprise us all around. Remember, just a few years back, Carlisle called Cliff our best player. Except for rebounding, Cliff could contribute in quite a few areas. All we need him for is one series, 10 minutes a game. I think he would do fine.

    Thanks for the info on his salary. Looks like a simple trade, Dale for Cliff, would work.

    PS look at his boxscore tonight. Thats why I thought of this. He must still have something left to be playing starters minutes, even if just for one game.
  14. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    Re: Yes

    cliff robinson? hahahaha

    oh wait, you were serious?
  15. max

    max All-Star

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    Actually Cliff could bring more than Davis. Only thing is Davis signed on and probably took less money for a decent chance at a championship. Way things are going its looking like a real safe bet. Kind of a Houdini carpet pull act to trade him now.
  16. pistonsloyalist

    pistonsloyalist First Round Draft Pick

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    Isn't the knock against Cliff that he has never been a good playoff performer?
  17. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    A youth oriented roster for the playoffs

    Here is a playoff roster that we could win it all with:

    Point: Billups, Arrroyo, Hunter.

    Shooting guard: Rip, Delfino.

    Small forward: Tay, Amir Johnson.

    Power forward: Ben, Dyess.

    Center: Sheed, EC, Cliff Robinson.

    Three players here only play in one series for us. Hunter and EC only play in the Miami series. Hunter slows Wade. EC slows Shaq.

    Cliff only plays in the SA series, giving minutes guarding Duncan. To this day, Cliff is still one of the most effective guys at guarding Duncan in this league.

    Darko is left out, because with EC and Cliff, we simply have no need for further depth at center. (Yes, you can never really have enough, but you got to weigh this with depth needs at other positions.)

    I included Amir Johnson on the roster. The Pistons are trying to make a small forward out of him. For now, I would like to see him come in some for Tay just to replace Tay's length and speed on defense.
  18. max

    max All-Star

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    Small Forward

    After watching Amir play for the 1st time last week he does look more like an SF. He has the quickness to play that position and at this time is too thin for a PF.
  19. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    a rotation

    Usual starters. Bench is Arroyo, Hunter, Delfino, Dyess, Darko. (or Davis if you prefer.) Hunter brings the ball up, which he can do quickly. (If not overplayed. Soon as he walks it up, sit him down a few games.) If no fast break op presents itself, the ball goes to Arroyo for him to run the halfcourt set.

    We brought Evans here to play defense, but we have found Evans lacking on D. Evans was playing both backup small forward, and backup shooting guard early in the season. That role has been reduced to just backup shooting guard. But Hunter, as a backup shooting guard, can play far better defense than Evans, and can add some ball handling skill at least. Sure he is not that great, but still a major step up from Evans on ball handling.

    Actually, this five man unit has three options for bringing the ball up the floor. Arroyo will sometimes as will Delfino. Whoever has the ball, Delfino or Hunter, can just push it up hard. Should work out pretty well. If Delfino is the guy bringing it up, then he himself would be the first option, looking to just take the ball all the way in. If Arroyo or Hunter is bringing it up, then the first option would be for them to find Delfino. Next option is Dyess. If Darko is in vs. Davis, then Darko would be the 3rd option. Arroyo is the 4th option.
  20. professor

    professor Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    minutes

    i don't remember where it was, but on some thread someone had said they were going to post an analysis of minutes, etc...

    this isn't quite the same thing, but 82games.com did a thing on substitutions that includes some analysis of minutes

    here's the link

    http://82games.com/simmons2.htm

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