Rotations

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Lee356, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    How about an all big line-up just for a couple of minutes sometime to really foul an opponent up?

    PG - Prince
    SG - Delfino
    SF - BWallace
    PF - McDyess / Davis
    C - RWallace

    During that one game Arroyo suspension Prince showed he could run the team productively, at least for a couple of minutes. (I'd like to see him bring the ball up a few times a game even with CB in the game.)

    And Ben can stay in front of anyone for a few minutes.
  2. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I like it. We would have to get some rebounds with those guys in there. Although, Sheed would be the Center, but would be outside the 3-point line the whole time.
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    We beat Boston, but not by much. Why? Wrong rotation. Flip Murray should not be playing. No defense. In a zone, he chooses to cover nobody at all. In a man to man, he plays the opposing guard so soft that he takes away no options at all. Mohammed should never have been signed, and McDyess is having problems with back spasms.

    For the Boston game, here is an 8 man rotation we could have used. Eight guys is too little for the long run, but perhaps we are adding Webber, and CB will come back soon enough:

    Delfino at point, Rip, Tay, Amir Johnson, Sheed.

    Blalock plays 20 minutes at point.

    Delfino plays 5 minutes at shooting guard, and Tay plays 7 minutes at shooting guard. (Which leaves Rip with 36 minutes of playing time.)

    Jason Maxiell plays 19 minutes at small forward, allowing to Tay to rest plenty and also allowing Tay to play some at shooting guard.

    Dale Davis rests Sheed and Amir Johnson. Maybe JMAX plays just a little at power forward, but not much.

    Nobody gets more than 36 minutes in the game. We beat the snot out of Boston.

    Next question, what about when Webber is added to the rotation and CB returns from injury? Simply, everyone plays a bit less. Nobody should average more than 32 mintues during a regular season.

    CWEBB should start, but with those knees of his, he should never play more than 24 minutes. Start him, play him the first 8 minutes of the game, the first 4 minutes of the 2nd quarter, the first 6 minutes of the 3rd quarter, and the last 6 minutes of the game.

    Sheed has long term ankle and knee problems right now stemming from his severe ankle injury last playoffs. Here is another player who should start, but should be limited for now to 28 minutes per game.

    CB should start out with 24 minutes a game and slowly extend that to 32 minutes a game.

    Rip and Tay, 32 minutes per game.

    In sum, the starters should be taking, starting Monday, (assuming Webber is with us and CB plays) 138 of 240 minutes. This leaves 102 minutes for the bench. Thats 5 players getting 20 minutes. JMAX, Amir Johnson, Blalock, Dale Davis, Delfino.

    Dyess should be kept as a spare big, and should get Dale's minutes on 2nd of back to backs. Dyess should work on his conditioning, making sure he is 100% for the playoffs, if we need him. Being the spare big on a championship team is a valuable role. He should embrace it.

    Dupree should be the 12th man dressed.
  4. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    There was a talking head shot of Flip during the Boston game saying that they wanted to run Delfino at the point more, but hadn't had enough practice time to get it going.
  5. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    With the addition of Webber, some more rotations.

    Start Billups, Rip, Tay, Sheed, Webber.

    2nd unit: Delfino at point, Tay at shooting guard, JMAX at small forward, Amir Johnson at power forward, Dale Davis at center.

    Comment about the season so far. We have completely wasted an opportunity. We could have been playing Amir Johnson all this time instead of wasting all those minutes watching Mohammed play no D, and being completely unable to post up on an NBA center.

    Alternate 2nd units,which must play some becaue we need the depth:

    Blalock, Delfino, JMAX, Amir Johnson, Dale Davis.

    Either of the above, except Dyess playing for any of JMAX, Amir, or Dale.

    This is a nine man rotation, but with a total of 11 players staying involved.
  6. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    A rotation we could use today, with Billups out.

    Delfino, Rip, Tay, Sheed, Dale Davis start. Note, a whole lot of defense, plenty of offense, and plenty of ball handling skill.

    Bench: Blalock, Tay at shooting guard, JMAX at small forward, Amir Johnson at power forward, Sheed at center.
  7. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Lee - Amir isn't with the club right now. I keep seeing him in your line-ups. What gives?
  8. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Amir can be called back at any time. My rotations are just possibilities, not what I actually expect to see at the moment. Sometimes what I want to see.
  9. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    ded, I will take that one step further. Yes, JMAX should be getting major burn. But with two good guards in the backcourt who can work together to feed the big guy in the post. Like CB and Billups paired up. Or CB and Blalock. Or Blalock and CB. Further, the other guy in with them should be Webber, another good passer to really make things click. Webber adds another post up player so they have to try to keep both JMAX and CWEBB out of the post at the same time. Or, add Amir Johnson to the mix.

    Here is a rotation for you that uses some of this.

    Start CB, Rip, Tay, Sheed, CWEBB. First wave off the bench, Blalock, Delfino, JMAX, Amir Johnson, Dale Davis.


    Blalock, Dale Davis, and Amir don't need to play much. Blalock and Amir are kind of just keeping their feet wet, and Dale Davis does not need to be playing major minutes at his age. These three would just play the last couple of minutes of the 1st quarter, and the first few of the 2nd quarter.

    Now Billups comes back in for Blalock, Dyess for Dale Davis, and Webber for Amir. This gives you Delfino and Billups in the backcourt, with JMAX at small forward, Dyess at power forward, and Webber at center.

    Depending on how things are going, you may or may not bring any other starters back in the 2nd quarter. Hunter would come in and play the last couple of minutes of the 2nd quarter, and maybe Dale Davis for Webber. Going into the 2nd half, none of the starters should have played more than 16 minutes, leaving them fresh to play major minutes in the 2nd half if needed.

    I posted the above at detnews.com, now, I am going to add some comments to it. One, Amir Johnson is now coming back soon, Sunday, I believe. (I saw this posted, but I did not catch the original source.) 2nd, my first impression is that Dyess and Webber do not work well together on defense, so I am not too crazy about this rotation I just posted. I put Dyess in there just because I wanted to try to include him, but its not easy to include a guy who plays poor help out D. Sheed instead could come back in the game for Amir, after Amir stays out there just a bit longer than I mentioned.

    This would give a unit of Billups, Delfino, JMAX, Sheed, Webber. Now you have three outside shooters to spread the floor, and two solid post up players. And of course, Sheed gives you even the luxury of a third post up player. Post up players with two guards in the backcourt who can feed the post.

    Where does Dyess come in then? Trade? Maybe he takes Dale Davis' minutes on occasion. Amir's on occasion. JMAX's on occasion. Webber's on occasion. And Sheed's on occasion. Keep him involved. If we go up against Miami, all bigs will be useful.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Who is "ded'?
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    If you read my post, you would see that I copied my post from the other forum. Ded is your and my good friend dednever.
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I'm just being cute lee. :)
  13. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Lot of positive comments about Hunter and Delfino pairing up in the backcourt. Defensively, it reminds us of the Pit Bulls. On offense, Hunter's inability to run the offense is solved by letting Delfino do that task.

    I believe we need Tay in there also with this combo, or possibly Webber, someone to add just a little more ball handling skill to the 2nd unit. After all, what makes our starting five (the new starting five) so good is that Tay gives them that 2nd good ball handler in the backcourt along with Billups. (While Rip does his thing, using picks.)

    But, the problem is that if any starter is involved with the 2nd unit, that starter has to sit out some of the time the starting unit is on the floor. Having your starting unit together a lot, provided they are worth a darn as a unit to begin with, is that they learn each other's habits inside and out. The more the merrier.

    Here is a rotation that uses both Tay and Webber as part of the 2nd unit.

    Start the usual, Billups, Rip, Tay, Sheed, and Webber.

    Six minutes in, have Delfino come in for Tay and Dale Davis come in for Webber. Dale only needs 8 minutes per game to keep sharp, so this would be his only 8 mintues. (4 minutes per half.) Dyess plays the last couple of minutes of the 1st quarter.

    To start the 2nd quarter, Hunter, Delfino, Tay, JMAX, Dyess. From there, well, use what works. Webber could come back in. JMAX could move over to small forward with Tay at shooting guard. Blalock could come in for a few mintues. Lots of possibilities. Bottom line though, this all leaves your starters together for a maximum of 24 minutes per game.

    So here is another rotation, adding in Amir Johnson as a small forward.

    Same starters, and they play 32 minutes together per game.

    The bench plays 18 minutes per game. Hunter, Delfino, Amir, JMAX, Dyess. Blalock and Dale Davis take some of Hunter's and Webber's mintues. (To keep Hunter fresher for when he is out on the floor, and to keep those knees of Webbers from getting overused.)

    Finally, what if we do trade for a backup point? That takes Hunter out of the equation. So we could then use a bit less ball handling up front. The second unit could become: New guy at point, Delfino, JMAX, Dyess, Dale Davis.

    Assuming we would not get this new guy unless he was also a scorer, we still would have 4 scorers in this unit. (Only counting Dale Davis as not a scorer)
  14. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    Elvis is Roscoe
  15. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    From WEBZ from the trade thread. I will respond to it below-with a rotation.

    Me: Ok, so we have Gasol, and lose Sheed, and we threw in Dale Davis for sweetener. And I will add that Jaric is the guy we get for Mohammed and Murray-just to use someone in the rotation below.

    Our starting unit becomes, Billups, Rip, Tay, Gasol, Webber. No doubt more offense than ever. More post up offense than ever. Gasol scores from the post pretty much exclusively. Yeah, sometimes his shots are not all that close in, but hey, with range like he has, who cares.

    I believe this starting unit lacks defensive presence. Further, having Rip in the starting lineup does not go at all with two post up players. So here is what I would propose to make things work.

    Talk Rip into coming off the bench. for the good of the team.

    Our starting unit becomes Billups, Tay, JMAX at small forward, Gasol, Webber. Wow, thats 3, count 'em, 3 post up players up front, with plenty of added toughness from Maxiell. And in the backcourt, two guards concentrating on feeding the post. Assuming Webber gets his jumpshot back, all three bigs have range out to 18 feet, so we don't even have to worry about the middle getting clogged up. And of course, with Tay and CB being such potent 3 point threats, it opens things up even more.

    Our bench becomes Jaric, Rip, Delfino, Amir Johnson, Dyess.

    Hunter is our 11th man, and for a 12th, entice EC out of retirement.

    We still got to let Rip play 30 minutes per game, so he would be coming in early for Maxiell and also taking some of Tay's time to keep Tay to a minutes average that does not exhaust him. (Not much more that 30 minutes.)

    Just to be a bit more complete, I will list the two units where Rip is in with the starters.

    Billups, Rip, JMAX, Gasol, Webber. I think here Amir and JMAX would have to swap roles, to give us a bit more ball handling.

    Billups, Rip, Tay, Gasol, Webber. (Already commented on. Too weak defensively up front. But it will do for stretches.)
  16. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Interesting and except for one thing: you and I have some misconceptions on the role of Tay.
  17. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Start Amir Johnson, Jason Maxiell, and Rasheed Wallace up front, with Billups and Rip in the backcourt.

    Stuckey, Prince, Dyess are the three main guys off the bench. Prince spells Amir and Rip. Stuckey sees time at both guard positions. Dyess spells Sheed and JMAX.

    To start the season, play Samb. Let him see just where he is, and what he needs to work on. If needed, send him down to the D-League. But if he can do even marginal as is, let him stay on the main team and start getting NBA experience (playing against actual NBA players he needs to learn how to guard and score against) immediately. If Samb can't help at all in the rotation, then pick up a free agent to play some minutes. Do not try to go back to Mohammed. Backwards ain't going to get us anywhere.

    Send Afflalo and Mejia to the D-League so they can play a ton. Let them concentrate on developing steady shooting. Whichever one does, bring him up. Both play defense, but neither will get enough minutes to stay sharp if they can't knock down shots.

    Some think I am picking on Prince maybe by suggesting he come off the bench. No, I am pointing out the reality that this guy needs a break from heavy minutes. Come playoff time, sure, have him start. But for now, rest is the main thing he needs. Meanwhile, Amir Johnson needs all the time he can get from here to the playoffs to gain experience so that he can help in the playoffs. Its just being practical.

    Billups is another guy who was way overplayed last season, especially early. That looks to be no problem this year with Stuckey being around. Having Prince be the main backup shooting guard means its easier to keep Stuckey at point, and Billups off the floor resting. Again, for Billups, nothing is more important than rest for him this season.

    Rip will also benefit a bit from this setup, as again, having a backup like Prince means the coach does not have to ever rush Rip back into the game without enough rest. Yes, Rip is the best conditioned player we have. But you still want him to go into the playoffs as fresh as possible.

    Sheed would be the guy I worry the most about in this setup. If Samb can't do enough at center, Sheed will be called upon to do a bit too much. Its not offense I am talking about, but defense. And so I hope we change our mind and retain Dale Davis. (No, do not play Mohammed-he does not do his share on defense, and would be nothing but a cause of Sheed getting worn out doing too much.

    This post is mostly just to gather my thoughts about the team. Please do not read too much into any of it. If you know me at all, you know I will be posting a different rotation next time. Its just a thought process, not much more.
  18. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    If we are to get value for Nazz, he must get minutes. He could come off the bench for several teams.
    As for Prince, Flip isn't mutable enough to try that.
    I like the idea of giving Samb a look see.
  19. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Time on the floor for Amir and Jason is ilnvaluable. We can't waste it trying to pump up the value of Mohammed. I say actually, the more we play Mohammed, the more the league is going to see what he can't do. Either trade him, or if untradeable, buy out the contract.

    I would kind of like to see the Pistons win it all this year. Distractions like trying to get something for Mohammed should simply be out of the way before camp starts.
  20. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    This is going to be interesting.
    PISTONS: Signing Day
    I don't know if it is money matter or what, but as much as I love Lindsey and what he was able to bring in the past, I don't believe he should be taking up a roster spot on the team this upcoming season. It is time to move on.

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