Rotations

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Lee356, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I agree that Maxiel is pretty worthless these days. It appeared from yesterday's game that JMax is out of the rotation. I'd like to see Daye still get some minutes, though.
  2. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Having Wilcox paired with Ben hurts Wilcox too much on offense. As I have stated repeatedly, JMAX and Wilcox paired together has seemed to work out just fine, the little we have seen it. I want to see more.
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Somehow, I don't really believe you think Maxiell is worthless. Just don't.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Max isn't worthless. But he's not very good either. He's a power version of Michael Curry.
  5. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I really don't think it is important to maximize our wins at this point. It's probably counter productive actually. I'm much less stressed out now when the coach plays guys like Atkins, Wilcox, etc. There is really no lineup that he can put on the floor now that I don't enjoy watching equally. It's neat to see some variety.

    It's all about next year. If we can showcase some players to increase their trade value, then that's great. If we can develop young players so that they will be better role players next year, then fantastic. We also need to get our keepers comfortable with eachother so that there will be a smaller learning curve next year.
  6. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Would love to see Daye backing up Tay at the 3. Let JJ keep starting at the 4.

    We need to see 15-20 games with a healthy roster to really see where we are.
  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I agree with all of this. Figuring out who the keepers are is the key.
  8. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Practical and realistic... anyone thinking this team will make a splash in the playoffs should reconsider their views (any rotations you want).

    Per Langlois "

    As for the perimeter … well, Hamilton and Prince both played 27 minutes and Gordon 33, a combined 87 minutes that got taken away from players like Chucky Atkins, Daye, Summers and Maxiell. It’s likely that the combined minutes of Prince, Hamilton and Gordon will gradually inch up to 100 or so, further squeezing minutes. Villanueva, likewise, will get more time as his foot pain eases. “We’ll see how they feel in tomorrow’s shootaround and add a few minutes here and there if they feel better,” Kuester said. “If they don’t, we’ll probably keep them the same or lessen it. A lot of it is their body dictating whether we can give the minutes or not. I was very pleased with their movements, the way they defended, the way they acted and I think that’s a huge plus for us.”
  9. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    He isn't...but, the door on the Piston front door has rusty hinges.
    Best he moves on and many teams can use him.
  10. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    It should be a known fact: Rip and Tay will create that old familiar, giant sucking sound.

    With so many out and at a rather un-Arney level, some issues may have surfaced. For sure an obvious fact surfaced: you do not embarrass your GM with a record loss (tying a low 64 point total)....at home.

    I figure that the Web 2.0 version did not surface with JD. No tweets, no facebook,no linkin and no blackberry email. Just a loud voice that quietly surface as he faced the team while opening up his blackberry: "Let me get this straight, who is unable to play Toronto the second time around?"
  11. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Odd man out, Bynum. He is demoted to one darn good emergency point guard.

    Stuckey, Daye, JJ, JMAX, Wilcox start.

    2nd unit: Gordon, Rip, Prince, CV, Ben Wallace.

    11th and 12 guys, Summers and Bynum

    Not dressed: Atkins, Kwame

    Kwame could play instead of Summers if he could help foul someone out, or if the opposing team has a big center he can counter.

    It may sound radical to have Rip come off the bench, but its for defense. Rip can chase around opposing points fairly well, so Gordon just has to guard shooting guards. Also, look at the fire power Ben Wallace is surrounded with to balance out his almost purely defensive game.

    Note, without the mandate to have Stuckey start - you could just swap units, starting the Gordon - Rip backcourt.

    But, I would like to see the Stuckey - Daye unit start, just so as to ensure some development time for Daye. And if Daye can't play his 14 minutes or so due to some kind of flaw Kuester sees, Summers gets the shot at the time that game. (basically, force 14 minutes of development time for Daye and Summers total per game.) (note, Summers would not sub directly for Daye, since Summers is more of a small forward. Tay would come in early at shooting guard to replace Daye, while Summers later comes in to play the minutes vacated by Prince.) Same with JJ. He and Prince could just split the small forward minutes down the middle.

    This is doable, but only with reduced minutes for some of our stars. Obviously, Prince is going to play less, but no way I think he can handle the type of minutes Kuester imagines him capable of.

    Daye is only playing 14 minutes per game at shooting guard, which means there are 34 minutes available there. Lets say Rip just takes 28 of them, leaving 6 for Gordon at shooting guard. Gordon plays those 6 at shooting guard, plus 21 minutes at point, for 27 minutes total. Which leaves 27 minutes for Stuckey.

    Now, why this rotation in particular? My thought was on how we could get a post up game established to start games. So I got the ultra tall Daye at shooting guard so he can feed the post over the top of the defending guards. I got JMAX in there instead of Ben, to give just a bit more of an offensive threat vs. Big Ben to augment Wilcox's game better. I got Rip on the bench, and Gordon, and CV, and Prince, all guys who maybe would like to shoot the ball vs. getting the ball to Wilcox in the post. I am basically surrounding Wilcox with guys who can help get the ball to him vs. shooting the ball themselves. (Of course, Stuckey has to cooperate with all this as the point guard. Stuckey's game can help augment Wilcox's game just by driving in, drawing fouls, and therefore softening up the middle a bit.)

    So now the 2nd unit comes on. Hopefully, we have had a lot of inside play, and the other team is already borderline in foul trouble. Tay and Gordon, and CV, need to concentrate on getting to the basket, drawing even more fouls and softening things up even more. Rip can help draw defenders away from the basket, while Big Ben occupies defenders who are trying to keep him off the offensive glass.

    With the whole team on the same page, we can get wins, and enough wins to make the playoffs yet. And while at the same time develop our future players.
  12. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    I just don't see why we should play Daye at the 2. That is not going to be his position in the NBA so I am not sure this makes sense? His skill set is a 3 even though his weight is a 2. I would rather see him develop at a position he will play rather then a postion we already have a logjam at.
  13. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    No matter what the justification is, I can't see Detroit ever having three bench players who each roughly make more than the entire starting lineup combined.
  14. pass99

    pass99 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    Well Walter, I can't imagine this either. I hope you are not losing sleep over this. Certainly JD is not. You will be left with BG and CV...end of line.
  15. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Lets look at the Hornets game and see how close Kuester got to my rotation.

    Most of the game was played with Stuckey, Rip, JJ, CV, Ben Wallace.

    JMAX and Wilcox each played about 10 minutes.

    Daye played the whole 2nd quarter, at small forward.

    Gordon did not play and Atkins did.

    No Tay, so we used a 9 man rotation instead of the 10 man rotation I listed.

    Now, lets say Gordon plays tonight. He is coming off a groin injury, so his minutes should be kept in check. (of course with this coach, I am almost sure he does not know this and Gordon will be soon sitting again with the groin injury after reaggravating it from overuse. Can anyone, maybe the trainer - clue Kuester in on this kind of thing?)

    Logically, Gordon could replace Atkins in the rotation. This is easily done by pairing Rip with Gordon so that Rip can guard the point guard.

    Since Tay ain't playing - play Summers.

    So, just to politically correct around here, start:

    Stuckey, Rip, JJ, Wilcox, Ben Wallace.

    Have Daye come in as the first sub early in the 1st quarter, sitting Rip for a spell.

    Also have JMAX come in for the last 6 minutes of the first quarter along with Daye.

    This gives a unit of Stuckey, Daye, JJ, JMAX, Wilcox, for 6 minutes. And this gets repeated in the 3rd quarter - except that CV starts the 2nd quarter, and sits for Wilcox for the last half of the 3rd quarter.

    Just to be clear, thats Stuckey, Rip, JJ, CV, Ben Wallace starting the 3rd quarter, then back to the Stuckey, Daye, JJ, JMAX, Wilcox for the last half of the 3rd quarter.

    Now, Wilcox and JMAX have played their 12 minutes, and maybe they don't play otherwise unless foul trouble occurs on the front line.

    Back to the first half. The 2nd quarter starts with Gordon, Rip, Summers, CV, Ben Wallace. For tonight, Gordon just plays 8 minutes and then Stuckey comes back in. Daye will only play more if Rip picks up a 3rd foul in the 2nd quarter.

    The 4th quarter goes the same as the 2nd quarter, except Summers just gets 6 minutes and JJ finishes the game.

    For minutes, thats:---------------vs. last night's game

    Stuckey 32, Gordon 16.-----------Stuckey 36, Atkins 20

    Rip 36, Daye 12-------------------Rip 46, Daye 15

    JJ 30, Summers 18----------------JJ 42, Summers DNP

    CV 30, Wilcox 18-----------------CV 39, Wilcox 13

    Ben Wallace 36, JMAX 12---------Ben Wallace 41, JMAX 12

    Now, when Tay returns, have him start out with light minutes. Instead of cutting Summer's minutes, have Summers play a bit at power forward while playing Wilcox at center a bit. This will keep Ben Wallace a bit fresher for the playoffs.

    Later, as Ben Gordon also returns to health, instead of cutting Summers out of the rotation altogether, have JJ or Daye sit out games here and there. Keep all three rookies involved.
  16. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Update on comparing my suggested rotation to actual minutes played last two games.

    For minutes, thats:-------vs. Hornets game--------Knicks game

    Stuckey 32, Gordon 16.---Stuckey 36, Atkins 20----Stuckey 42, Atkins 24

    Rip 36, Daye 12-----------Rip 46, Daye 15----------Rip 39, Daye 11

    JJ 30, Summers 18--------JJ 42, Summers DNP------JJ 29, Summers DNP

    CV 30, Wilcox 18----------CV 39, Wilcox 13---------CV34, Wilcox 16

    Ben Wallace 36, JMAX 12--Ben Wallace 41, JMAX 12--B.W. 29, JMAX 16
  17. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Rotation for now:


    <p>First, if you are injured, you come off the bench, or play minor minutes even if you start.</p>


    <p>If you are 35 years old, you come off the bench.</p>


    <p>If your game does not promote team ball, you come off the bench.</p>


    <p>For now, Start Stuckey, Daye, JJ, JMAX, Wilcox.</p>


    <p>Note, Rip ain't starting, as the idea is to go into the post when you have a post player out there. Something that would never happen with Rip on the floor. PS, you also need a new coach, one who actually understands that yes, you are suppose to try to run plays for your post player.</p>


    <p>Now, I don't know how well Wilcox's back is doing these days, but lets keep his minutes down to like 14 total for now and see how that goes. Just have him start and then move aside shortly after the halfway mark of each 1st and 3rd quarter. And if he looks ineffective in his first stint, heck, just cancel his 2nd one, starting JMAX and Ben Wallace to start the 3rd quarter.</p>


    <p>Now, you have available on the bench Rip, Gordon, Ben Wallace, Bynum, Summers, Kwame, and Tay. Exactly who plays amongst these guys is not important as making sure each plays in positon. No Rip at small forward, no Tay at power forward, etc.</p>


    <p>At point, choose between Bynum and Gordon to backup Stuckey.</p>


    <p>At shooting guard, choose between Gordon and Rip to backup Daye.</p>


    <p>At small forward, use Tay to back up JJ. Possibly Daye and Summers there some.</p>


    <p>At power forward, use Summers for now as the backup. Don't let CV play until such time he is fully healthy and can actually outplay Summers. (Including defense in the equation.)</p>


    <p>At center, of course, Ben Wallace is the backup. Keep his minutes to around 25. Kwame can be used in certain situations, like foul trouble or if there is a big center he can contribute a few minutes of defense to.</p>


    <p>I know such a common sense rotation, one where people play in position, will never happen with this coach, nor with this team, which cares not one bit about winning but rather the stars getting lots of minutes.</p>


    <p>Here is a minutes structure that could be seen with this rotation. Note, I only got JJ playing 24 minutes. He is a rookie after all. Liking to see JJ play does not mean I think he has to play starters minutes.</p>


    <p>Point guard. Stuckey 28 minutes. Bynum 12 minutes. Gordon 8 minutes.</p>


    <p>Shooting guard. Daye 20 minutes. Rip 16 minutes. Gordon 12 minutes.</p>


    <p>Small forward. JJ 24 minutes. Tay 16 minutes. Daye 4 minutes.</p>


    <p>Power forward. Wilcox 14 minutes. Summers 24 minutes. JMAX 12 minutes.</p>


    <p>Center. JMAX 16 minutes. Ben Wallace 26 minutes. Kwame 6 minutes.</p>


    <p>Note, when CV comes back healthy, don't dress Kwame.</p>
  18. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    <p>I don't like startinf Max or Wilcox but I do like starting Daye</p>

    <p>Maybe things will change dramatically after the trade deadline</p>
  19. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Has there ever been a coach in history that has played what you would describe as a "common sense rotation"? As time and coaches go on, I'm more and more convinced that what you call "common sense" is anything but.


    Disclaimer: I'm not finding fault with your rotation per se. I haven't seen a game in a while myself, so I can't judge the results of a lineup change very well.
  20. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Our biggest problem remains Rip Hamilton, and his jump shooting tendencies. It infects the whole team. Meanwhile, Bynum is injured, so use Gordon as a point guard, now that he is somewhat recovered from his groin injury. We pair him up with Rip so that Rip is chasing the opposing point guard around. And CV, is probably still too injured to help much. Let him play as needed when we need an extra defender around the basket, or just to rest someone else, which always helps.



    Start Stuckey, Daye, Tay, JMAX, Ben Wallace.

    Gordon, Rip, JJ, Summers, and Kwame as the bench.

    But with Kwame playing very little actually, with JMAX and Ben Wallace taking turns playing with the bench. CV can rest JMAX at power forward here and there so he can spend more time at center.

    Another route to take, just go young:

    Start Stuckey, Daye, JJ, Summers, and JMAX. Stuckey will no longer complain about noone crashing the boards when he drives in. And fast breaks will be the norm, not something the older vets occasionally manage to find the energy for.

    This leaves for a bench: Gordon, Rip, Tay, CV, Ben Wallace.

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