Round 2 Game 7 - "The Witness Falls"

Discussion in '2006 Playoffs' started by max, May 18, 2006.

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  1. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Bball, good point on Dice. Maybe they could have changed the defense. But I do think you underestimate Ben's range in covering drivers like Wade, Le Bron, etc. I think he held back a bit not wanting the fouls but against Cleveland, he should have used his fouls and mobility earlier in games. I wonder about Flip's scheme on Le Bron during this series. The problem we had with Campbell last year was, yes, he was good for Shaq, but he was awful on Wade's drives.

    Ahb, Tay made some nice passes out of the double team. Wasn't it his pass to Lindsay across court in the 3rd for that three? This year, he is constantly surveying the double team and the floor. Tay is a match-up problem in almost any series. Last year, the ball would go to him and he would get stuck on the baseline. Not this year, not so far. And his shot has been just fine--look at the stats. No one can afford to not pay him attention any more. Without Tay these last two games, not sure we would be celebrating. He showed more grit than almost anyone. A player who is finally growing up.
     
  2. daveg725

    daveg725 First Round Draft Pick

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    flip didn't do a great coaching job this series--the verdict is still out on him. Next series, hopefully he improves. I don't know if he has enough credibility with such a vet group.

    Anyone think Tay's issues passing out of doubleteams may be due to the fact that he hasn't really been used as a #1 option before. I'd guess he should work on it in the offseason and during the playoffs. I'm certain he'll improve here though.

    Everyone has been making a deal about Ben lately...I don't know if he stays or leaves, or if he's unhappy about his role in the O...but I trust Joe D to handle the situation and if he wants to leave, I trust him to find someone else.
     
  3. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Heaven help us, do some of y'all really know what to look for in a game??? Dyess was huge. No rebounds - no rings. When a player can come off the bench in a game 7 and give you 8 boards that's not something that should be dismissed. We were losing this series on the boards-period. I was so proud that all of our players manned up and hit the boards hard, guards included.

    Sheed was just off, I mean it was mainly due to shot selection and poor execution.

    Whoever was complaining about Tay...are you crazy?? Do you even realize the type of work that kid just put in... 48mpg for the last 3 games??? Quiet as it's kept Tayshaun Prince is an iron man of a player, dude has yet to miss a game in his piston career, he's suited for every game since he's been here. even though he's skinny and he's always laying on the ground looking like he's not gonna get up, he does and keeps on going......KUDOS Tay. And.....Tay passes very well out of the double team for a player that never gets the ball enough offensively. Answer me this, who on our team passes out of the double team very well....hmm....Sheed?? Fadeaway Dyess?? Never pass out of the post Chauncey?? Ben?? Rip?? Who. Bottom line is this we have a poor post offense team. We have capable players, but it's not executed enough to get good at it. It took half the damn season for Flip to put Tay back on the box, like the previous 2 and 1/8 seasons (Cola's playoffs and LB's tenure).

    Anybody happen to catch Ben's post game comments.......
     
  4. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    posting the news. making avatars. cracking lame one liners to bring down the basketball iq of the forum :ranger:

    I didn't get to see a game in this series so I'd like to know what cleveland did to funk up our offense. OTOH, I'm glad we got that wake up call now than behind 3-2 on miami. Keep it rolling guys!
     
  5. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Right on KGREG.. Tay was the MVP/Iron man and the only true player who stepped it up in at least six of the seven games. He was the only one who knew how to take it to the post/rim when the outside shot was not falling. He got at least 3 putbacks todaywhen our other bigs were out of position or didn't have the drive to followup. No fadeaways ala sheed & Dice and definitely no missed bunnies ala both Wallaces.

    He didn't get the all star recognition, but I hope when they present the championship trophy, he gets the finals MVP and finally gets the recognition over these NBA branded stars>La Bron, Wade, Nash etc,
     
  6. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Well said Kgreg...
    What's encouraging to me is that Tay is starting to show signs of hitting his perimiter shots again... it's a long time coming... we know the kid is a capable shooter... this should help open up the lanes.... The Heat have another weapon to worry about now.
    Tay really wasn't doubled very much this series... it was only a passive show... but as you said he had his head up looking for someone to overcomit.
    We tend to dwell on our players warts... when we know most teams have bigger issues.
     
  7. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Merc I can't bite my tongue......I hate FLIP!!!!! Dude is in such unchartered water it ain't even funny. Listening to Ben after the game I understand his beef. Ben says if we hang our hats on defense and rebounding everything else will take care of itself. If we do a better job of getting everyone involved, sharing the ball, and making the extra pass, nobody can touch us.

    I don't like the game plan that says ride the hot hand, it makes us to easy to scout and defend. It turns us into a team that rely's too much on one individual to make a play, which has always been something that hurts us. It alienates teammates which allows people to find theselves uninvolved in the gameplan and eventually in the game as a whole. I like the game plan of inside/out and move the ball weakside with Rip running his defender into an early grave.....by the time the 4th qtr comes the opposing team doesn't know what to do and we get teams into the penalty early, and it keeps all 5 players focused because they've been getting touches at some point in the offense. No player should go 4 straight possessions where they never touch THE DAMN BALL!!!!

    Sheed used to be good for 4-6 pts from the offensive glass, now he's on the arc too much to board leaving Ben all alone. I like the fact that we can shoot the trey with more ease and confidence, but I don't like the fact that it's a primary play in our scheme now. If Rip is open for a weakside trey that means he's been standing there for the duration of the shot clock instead of running his man off screens. I love this team and my heart bleeds Piston Blue, but we're resembling the the T'Wolves (this I know because I used to watch them almost as much as the Pistons, KG is my favorite non piston player, so they're my favorite west conf team) I just really miss the Detroit-Goin to Work-Blue Collar-Lunch Pail team that made Ben Wallace an AllStar, and coined the phrase 'play the right way'.
     
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I don't know how Tay avoided knee injury today. That replay looked pretty gruesome. That would have really been a critical blow to our chances. Luckily, he is made of rubber.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Hey guys, I just scanned the thread quick, but I didn't see that anyone posted this, so if they did, don't jump on me!

    61 points is an all-time new playoff low by the Cavs. The previous low (64) was co-held by the Pistons (L vs. Celts in Stackhouse era) and New Jersey Nets (2004 Playoff W for Pistons). This is all in the shot clock era btw (1955 forward?)

    That is truly great. Not only did we set a record, but this team got itself off of the (infamous) top spot by doing so.

    I got to kinda watch most of the game. It's taped so I will be going over it again tomorrow. Meanwhile, here are my thoughts.

    Lindsey Hunter came up huge in an elimination game. What more can you say?

    Tay was great. He's been pretty solid all series. You have to remember that he is the YOUNGEST member of the starting 5. He's becoming less of an X-Factor and more of A FACTOR (game in, game out).

    Ben was money tonight. In a drag it out, punch in the mouth, street fight, how can you NOT want this guy on your team? He does all the little things that contribute to a win. The immeasurables.

    Flip finally outcoached Mike Brown. Just in time.

    The start was amazing. The fans were so loud on the radio, I was jacked up just listening to Blaha doing the pre-game.

    Notes:

    Lindsey was yelling at Rip on the sidelines after he allowed a blow-by without helping. Maybe he does have a future as a "Little General".

    I thought LeBron was getting a little too cocky in the first half, posturing and scowling after making hoops. It's a wonderful thing that Five are mightier than One. This kid needs to grab a comic book and a smile during his summer vacation. I dislike his off arm drives, blatant travels and the media circus that follows him everywhere.

    Gooden was exposed. He's not a very good defender. The Pistons kept him in foul trouble and out of the game for the most part.

    David Stern was interesting during an in-game interview. He refused to endorse LeBron as the league saviour, saying that THE KING would shoulder the load with the "other stars" in the league. I like these old guys when they get crotchety while being interviewed by some sideline bimbo.
     
  10. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Agree with everything but this.

    Please convince/educate me (seriously, I want to know what he did well because I am very concerned about the Miami series based on my perceptions of Flip during this series).
     
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Second half adjustments. I know there is a contingent that will never give Flip any credit, and that all good defense is driven by the players, but I thought that the defense was tremendous on LittleBronJames in the second half. Flip let Lindsey rackup 4 fouls in 13 minutes, but seriously disrupt THE KING's offense. He trusted Hunter to come in and he performed as a catalyst.

    LBJ said in the post game interview that he saw every possible defense he will ever see in his career during this game. Half court traps, over the screen, under the screen, Flip just kept bodies running at and double teaming him.

    Yeah, the double teaming burned us in previous games, but it can be effective when called at the right time.

    So if Flip coached several games poorly, I will call this 18 point win, with stifling defense and a new playoff opponent scoring total record set a success.

    The second part of my statement is that there were absolutely NO adjustments by Mike Brown in the second half. Was he suddenly brain dead or were Flip's adjustments too extreme for him to compensate for on the fly? I'd say it was the latter.
     
  12. TWOTIMESRALPHI

    TWOTIMESRALPHI Team Captain 3x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Sure about that? As far as I know, the previous low was 69 points of the Nets against the Pistons in 2004- they mentioned that during the game and showed it on the screen...
    Ben's complaining about O just sucks- he got the ball early in the game and produced one turnover, one miss and one pass. His behaviour is just childish- like a young kid who wants it too much and just sucks. Also, did you see what happened when they got him on Lebron after the pick and roll? Lebron just went straight past him for a dunk. Ben was at best when he defended their bigs and grabbed it- his rebounding skills are still good.
    But when I see someone like Snow walking through our defense than I notice that there#s something wrong- a season ago, his shot would have been swatted into the stands and know he gets a foul call or even makes the shot. Or, if a small guy misses, scrubs like Varejo got the rebound (remember- I'm talking about the first half).
    Sheed should jack up 3's only when not covered well- it was ok in the regular season, but in the playoffs he should concentrate on taking good shots. I mean, his shot selection was more than just poorly. What's up with Dyess' fadeaway? He even makes a fadeaway when uncovered is he afraid or something? Last night he showed everyone how high he can jump when he crashed the boards so why don't we use him more in the O? Is it a mental thing or what?
    I loved that pass at Lindsey by Tayshaun- didn't look good at first because Lindsey was quite far away but he got it. As for Ben... just stop it... concentrate on D, that's your home...
     
  13. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    Good adjusments by Flip especially:
    • Defensive adjusments at the half to get the Pistons to stop James. Lebron only had 6 points after the break on 1-9 shooting. Even better thought the Pistons kept the entire Casv team to 19% shooting and a NBA Playoff record tying 23 points in the second half.
    • Getting Lindsey in the game. the game was still close about halfway through the 3rd quarter, but Lindsey helped spark the Pistons to the win.
    • Flip and the players kept getting the ball to Tayshaun to help get them the win. If Wade gaurds Tay or even if Posey does we should go to him a lot.
     
  14. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    2005 Game 7:

    Dice sitting out with 4 fouls in the Finals?
    Tay guarding Duncan?
    Spurs walloping the Pistons in the first 2 games of the series and everyone thinking the series was over.


    Stackhouse taking a boneheaded jump shot instead of driving on the last play. The Mavs would have blanked the Spurs 4-0. Now they are tied 3-3.

    Even with a great coach (LB) and an up and coming one (AJ) s*&t happens. I am not remotely equating Flip with LB. I just think its too early to bury him as a dope. On top of Flips lack of adjustements, the players really did a poor job of executing in this series. The FT % was atrocious, that is indicative of the Pistons feeling the heat. Everyone shot like they were blind. If the Pistons atleast get to the Finals I think Flip would have earned his spot.

    Hers is a Chauncey quote from MLive:

    "Anytime you get to a Game 7, it's just will," said Pistons point guard Chauncey Billups, who had 12 points and eight rebounds. "You're not going to trick them with anything that you do and they're not going to trick us with any plays. We know them inside out. I know what those dudes had for breakfast. You're not going to trick them, so it's going to come down to will."
     
  15. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    ben needs to do a better job of hitting the boards. too many times i saw ben being blocked out. his man leaves to double or help ben should be diving to the hole. ben needs to stop worrying about offense and get his defense and rebounding together. he gets no pass from me because he's the dpoy. i tell you what if ben wasn't an unrestricted free agent i think flip would have went to mcdyess a long time ago. mcdyess had almost as many rebounds in half the time on the court.

    you can't scout us if we have 5 guys that could potentially be the hot hand. riding tay in game 7 was the best move flip did offensively. i do agree rip needs to run off his screens more. i just dont' agree with ben getting more touches. he doesn't create offense it's just a wasted pass. i think ben should get the ball in position to dunk and that's it.
     
  16. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    yes. i know ben covers lebron better than mcdyess. it's just nobody has to cover ben on the other end. don't underestimate the impact bens' man playing zone and double teaming has on our offense. yeah i think ben should have been more aggressive against lebron and used his fouls some hard ones too. i mean what is he saving them for?? i just think mcdyess should be in there when we are struggling with offense and we don't have a great low post player to defend. ben should be in there against duncan or o'neal. mcdyess makes the other team play both ends of the court and ben doesn't. they both have thier uses for this team. i just don't think ben wants to accept a role on the team he wants to be a star.

    last year lb misused elden. he should have started elden against shaq because miami likes to go to shaq early in the game because shaq is pooped after half time. wade's time is in the second half and ben could have got the majority of those minutes. ben can check a tired shaq.
     
  17. Jman

    Jman Second Round Draft Pick

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    Charley Rosen has a good explanation of Flip's adjustments in the 2nd half of Game 7. He makes it sound like the Pistons were holding some things back all series, and only pulled out the final defense on LeBron at the last minute as if Coach Brown (and more likely LeBron) could have countered anything if they had time to plan. Maybe the Pistons were hoping they could dispatch the Cavs easily and still hold back some tricks for next year's playoffs? Regardless, I think we most all underestimated the Cavs - they won 50 games after all (how many did the Pistons win in 2004 when the East was weaker?) and have an uber-player.

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5627958
     
  18. ggazoo69

    ggazoo69 Team Captain Forum Donor

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    I think I heard Flip say this during the postgame: "We all know that defense wins championships." Yep, Flip is learning what Ben has always known. This team hangs its hat on defense. Flip, perhaps, has always known it, superficially, but never got a real taste of it until yesterday. Wow, 61 points.

    Still, it seems there have been more isolation plays and less ball movement on offense. I loved the ball movement during the regular season and hope they can return to it. Sheed was ALWAYS shooting wide-open 3's during the season but not at all in this series.

    Glad this series is over. Enjoy the Game 7s tonight, fellas. Something tells me the Spurs find a way to win. Just a hunch. :nod:
     
  19. Warthog

    Warthog Bench Warmer

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    okay time for my postgame report. first, i can't believe people are still dogging ben like he sucked this series. except for the missed free throws he brought it. people are saying lebron got by him easily and dunked on him? good lord...ben helped us win game 6 by limiting lebron's and-1s. lebron would drive, ben would either foul him hard and prevent the easy basket, or he'd block the shot. doesn't anyone remember lebron going full speed for the dunk and ben blocking it, and lebron nearly twisting his ankle as he fell to the ground?

    tayshaun was the player of the game. he got us 7 quick points early, and iced the game down the stretch. i think brown decided lebron was tired and didn't have him defend prince as much in the post so he'd have his energy on offense. well, prince abused whoever was guarding him, even lebron the one time he tried to. it's amazing how TP backed him down and he gives up so much weight.

    varejao is still a joke, flinging his head back like he's constantly getting fouled, and setting massive illegal screens every play. i don't mind relaxed rules on screens, but what this guy does shouldn't even remotely be allowed.

    perhaps i'm going to have to yell 'noooooooo lindsey' his first shot of every game. last time i did it he went off with all those 3-pointers, and again last night he made the basket and pimped out the rest of the game. he should have drawn a charge on lebron, and it was so incredibly obvious, but somehow he got called with the blocking foul.

    as an fyi, that was the 6th game 7 for lindsey and dale davis. that experience surely helped lindsey tonight. also, the crowd was really into it early, then slacked off just like the pistons, and finally brought it again in the 2nd half when it was needed. it's hard to keep your energy the entire game and it must be even harder for the players. but either way i was proud of the loudness - and trust me it was bananas, despite what terry foster would have you believe. granted there are more 'wine and cheese' folks who go there to be seen, but it's not as many as he says. either that or since i moved to the upper bowl for the playoffs i see the majority who are the rabid fans. there was a 'wine and cheese' guy in front of us who brought earplugs (wtf?) so my buddy and i made it a point to clap our thundersticks right behind his ears :D i also sustained injuries in the form of 2 broken thundersticks from pounding so hard, and had to finish the game with 1. to make up for it i resorted to the low-pitched 'hooooooooo' that you hear every defensive possession at MSU games.

    oh yeah and you guys should be amazed at the defensive lockdown in the 2nd half. it was similar to watch the pistons go on a 30-4 run against indiana last year (of which the 4 points came on free throws that shouldn't have even been fouls). you definitely 'witnessed' history in the making, and it just proves what detroit can do when it's focused and on top of its game.

    still, this series should have never been this close. if i can think of anything else i'll post it later.
     
  20. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Damn, some of y'all cats is felonious. Ben does not want more SHOTS on offense, there is a huge difference in wanting more TOUCHES, and SHOTS. Our offense is at it's best when the ball goes inside/out, moves strongside to weakside and we make the extra pass....... all Ben wants is for our offense to run "the right way". When we run it the right way Ben gets touches-period, that doesn't mean shots, it just means touches, it may just be on a Ball reversal to Rip on the weakside, but he touches the ball. It's damn near impossible for a player to get into the flow of the game with a great focus if he's totally detached from it on the floor in certain aspects. This also makes you have to account for Ben on offense because the threat of the lob is always there, and the fact that there are gaps in a defense when you ake them move, gaps where Ben can make passes or have a driving lane open up from time to time.
     
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