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Discussion in '2017 Playoffs' started by Walter, May 1, 2017.

  1. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Can we just send Pops on up to Mount Olympus now and get it over with? Yikes, that was impressive. The Spurs were in every passing lane, made every switch.

    You do wonder how much the bump on the head was affecting Hardin. Hopefully no one snuck him through the concussion protocol.
     
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  2. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 5x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    What a contrast between two MVP candidates the last two nights. James Harden folded. John Wall was a stud.
     
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  3. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    We have a game 7 in our hands.

    Neither team stands a chance against Cleveland though. They're just too good.
     
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  4. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    Jaylan(?) Brown is out there playing in a G7 of the playoffs for the C's. Meanwhile we were lucky if SJ got 10 minutes of run for more than a few games in a row let alone Ellenson last season.
     
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  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Yeah, not playing Ellenson really sunk our entire season.
     
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  6. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Sometimes you have to play everyone just to see how good they are.... We have had coaches and GM's over the past 5 years that only wanted to play the guys that "got paid" the most. Everyone else is especially rooks and second year men have been glued to the bench unless there was a blowout.

    Kelly Olynk got enough run his first three years that he could be trusted to play 30 minutes in a game 7 and proved to everyone that he belonged and was the xfactormvp.. Jonathon Simmons another guy that would ride the pine on most benches has been a pivotal player for the Spurs in getting to the WCF.

    We have the history of letting guys who rode pine go, only to see them play meaningful minutes on other teams.....Alflollo, Middelton, Amir, among others....
     
  7. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    Can we be a little honest about not giving young players playtime please? This narrative of Pistons as an organization where rookie careers go to die is not entirely genuine. KCP, Moose, Drummond have all been given tons of minutes from day 1 and all of them became regular starters in their second years. Rodney Stuckey's been given the keys to the kingdom without deserving it. Some young ones get the minutes, others don't. There has been players like Afflalo, Middleton and Amir who didn't get the minutes they might've deserved, but there are even more examples of guys who didn't get the minutes and they didn't do jack after they left the Pistons (Sharpe, Macklin, Daye, Dinwiddie, etc etc)
     
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  8. The Panda

    The Panda Garbage Post All Star Forum Donor

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    Austin Daye did get burn though. He did play minutes (limited) and sucked.

    Spencer Dinwiddie was the starting point guard for a sucky brooklyn team for a little while.

    Vernon Macklin was a backups backup. He didn't play minutes and now plays in the Qatari b-ball league. He sucked.

    Out of the 60 draft picks a year, 20-30 are out of the league in 2 years. So you probably have a 1 in 2 chance that you will get someone who is even qualified to ride the pine on a decent team. The reason why you get to beat up on the team for not playing the good guys is because guys like Middleton (2nd rounder, efficient offense, good defense) rarely come up. Not playing them is just silly - especially when you are losing <40 games a season!
     
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  9. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    very few players sit for 2 years and magically start being major players in year 3... even the Spurs find time to play rooks and see what they have year in and year out to see what they have. Don't expect the rooks to be given starter spots and 40 mins a night but if they are a first round draft pick they need to get some mins and on a reg basis to see what we have. but what do I know....
     
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  10. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Other than Darko, most of our top 10 picks have been elevated to starters within their first year. Its that the guys picked 2 or 3 spots behind them have been some what better.... or the guy picked right ahead was better. The guys that we pick between 12 and 30 have not been able to cut it or get enough PT to prove it and the guys picked in the second round barely make the team.

    With that being said, Isaiah version2 was the 60th player chosen in the draft in 2011...got PT in his first year playing 65 games and averaging 26 minutes a game, 11.5 ppg and 4 dimes.

    The Pistons picked Amir Johnson 56th in 2005, but with a loaded team, he he played 3 games his first year and 8 his second year...
     
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  11. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Sounds reasonable, but you need some big picture thinking about your positional strengths and what may have brought you some reasonable successes.

    This needs to be (as always) balanced between the league (and how it may have changed), athletic training, boundry-court dimensions (minor change), geographic (highly urbanized elitism) concentrations, hegemonic financial/ organization levels, and fan base (propaganda) manipulation.

    Still not happy? Then stop immediately....sit back (let all catch up to you, as it will soon do) and then follow the money roots.
    One more key...never look up to admire only the sky, but allow your gaze to follow the bloom of the tree canopies.
    Better still, allow that upward gaze to follow what is below. Only roots allow the development of canopies.
     
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  12. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    If you're a good player, you kick butt when given the chance so the coach cannot put you back on the bench. Example: Curry vs Prince.

    I agree with everything said about Middleton. He showed flashes of brilliance in limited minutes we gave him. The team sucked and he still didn't get play time.

    Afflalo's case was a bit unfortunate. I think it just was bad timing. I believe the organization realized the potential, but the roster was stacked and we were in full win-now mode. The biggest mistake was to give him away for nothing.

    Amir eventually grew up to become a good player, but let's not forget the fact that he couldn't outplay the undersized Maxiell while he was with Detroit.


    Developing young players is a very substantial part of a coach's resume. However, if a young player isn't getting the minutes that he perceivably deserves, the fault lies equally between the player and the coach.

    Of all the players that rode the pine this year, it is Boban that is a cause for concern because of the amount of money we've paid him. That just was not a prudent investment.
     
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  13. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    We had a coaching merry-go-round after Flip left. No stability will create long term problems. That's why the obsession with draft position is so silly. Just like playing SJ and Ellenson. Guys don't hit their stride in their second year. For pete's sake, Dre has been in the league 5 years and he's still rough.

    Whose minutes would he take? Dre? Baynes played really well, and IMO didn't cost us games.

    Boban was signed last year as Baynes insurance. We overpaid in advance like people do when they put a deposit down on an unreleased new product.

    I'm still not convinced that Boban is a 20 MPG player on a good team. His stiffness seems like something that good coaches would be able to easily plan for. And once someone gets the book on him, he's going to literally be a pylon out there unless he's going to show a lot more to his game than we've seen thus far (3P shooting, off the dribble attack, ability to consistently draw fouls etc).
     
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  14. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Wanted to follow up on my last post, anyone who is judging SVG now is missing the bigger picture.

    It takes time to turn a franchise around. The Warriors were a joke for decades. The Clippers too.

    The question we should all be asking is whether or not SVG is doing the stuff that will have the franchise in good shape 3 years from now, not whether we make the playoffs as the 8th seed this season.

    Joe did long and lasting damage to this franchise after we won the title. That's not easily reversed.

    Everyone is worried about tonight's game, and this year's draft pick, when the bigger picture stuff like scouting, Grand Rapids, the coaching staff, the facility, the pitch to FAs etc will go a lot longer towards the franchise getting back on track. Look at any bad franchise, and they don't do the little things well. The Spurs have had fantastic scouting going back to the early 90s. We're just now trying to get our scouting game right after it was a joke under JD for many, many years.

    I am not defending SVG. This approach of looking ahead is what leaders in every facet of life have to do. Military leaders, business leaders. Only political leaders can get caught up in the moment all the time, because they tend to ride short term waves of popularity/unpopularity. They are more reactionary.

    Can you imagine a General whose army is completely demoralized and talking about blowing up the regiment if they fail to capture a bridge? Can you imagine a business leader scrapping a billion dollar investment because they missed a quarterly earnings projection by 10%?

    Amazon was once DOA. I think I read the other day that Jeff Bezos (the owner of Amazon) is the richest man in the world. In the late 90s, you could buy their stock for almost nothing.

    Patience is not just a virtue, it is necessary for prosperity.
     
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  15. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    This is a good analogy. To extrapolate on this, IMO what we did was that we put the deposit down on the next Tesla supercar but we don't even have a carport to park the thing in (reliable perimeter play), our roof is leaking (Drummond) and the sump pump (Reggie) no longer works well.
     
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  16. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Nicely expressed. But, there were signs everywhere. I wonder just how independent (of Stan) that voices are heard? Perhaps, none at all.
     
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  17. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    We are a couple 100K from the luxury tax so I'll say we are not looking good 3 years down the road. Van Gundy's made 2 draft picks since he's been here and neither play. We signed Jon Leuer for 4 years. He singed a guy to max contract that he hates.

    That said, I think you need to start with ownership when you assess Joe's late moves and at least part of Van Gundy's early moves. I don't think it was a good idea to say you expected the Pistons to make the playoffs his first year here.
     
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  18. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Did you forget the cap has been expanding year over year and doesn't show any signs of stopping soon?

    SJ was drafted 8th and has played the 8th most minutes of his draft class. Bear in mind, he came into the NBA very young.

    This sounds like he is on track.

    This is the one that really sticks in your craw. Jon Leuer could cure cancer and do a solo mission to Mars, and you would still have problems with him.

    LOL. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

    You know what is NEVER a good idea? Setting low expectations in a competitive endeavor. People will forgive you for not making the playoffs, but they won't forgive you for not trying like hell to do so.
     
  19. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    The cap is only projected to go up another 20m over the next 4 seasons. If we keep KCP that will eat up most it right there! Without any trades, this is the roster that is signed to win it all.
    Leuer does look like a mistake right now. By the end of the season Ellenson was giving us just as much production and with much more upside. Unless Leuer can rediscover his mojo, I'd take anything I can get for him save a 1st round pick or worse contracts.
     
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