Starters Over Rated

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by anakin, Jun 27, 2008.

  1. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe seems to think he can get a team to give him a Tier I/superstar caliber player by packaging a starter or two. Besides, Melo, who is Joe going to target? Wade, LBJ, Bosh, Howard etc. Question is why would any team give up a young stud with top end potential to get mostly vets slightly south of their prime, maybe an exception in Tay and Rip? By making the statement that he is not looking for a teams 2nd or 3rd best player he is setting the groundwork to maintain the status quo. Melo is the only one I can see as possibly available due to issues w/ Karl. It seems more likely that a couple of starters are traded for equivalent value i.e. Brand, Davis. Are the Pistons starters so good that any team should be willing to be part w/ their best players. I think there is sense of over inflated worth. The trading season is still young but I just don't see any blockbuster deals over the horizon.
     
  2. max

    max All-Star

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    Well, they are going to be worth a lot less if he waits another year. Can't blame his for trying to get as much as he can but its not like we are the team to beat anymore.

    I would give it some more time. We just had the draft and the FA period begins on what July 1. After teams are not "getting their guys" we will see more teams open to trades.
     
  3. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Absolutely agree. Joe D keeps thinking that this team is built on 4 1/2 superstars, when the reality is they are 5 really good players, that play exceptionally well with each other. No I in team to the extreme.

    But isolated, how much does Tay help a team by himself? Rip? CB? Sheed? No where near as much as a Carmelo can do, yet Joe thinks he can make that swap. Our best individual that can lift another team is probably Stuckey, and he's the one guy that's off limits.

    Predictions, no trades this year. JoeyD's asking is too high, other teams will be making deals around him, and we're starting next year with the same team and a different coach. Hopefully, our problem last year was with the coaching, and Curry can correct it. If it was the players...:skull:
     
  4. hangtime

    hangtime First Round Draft Pick

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    I agree with the above statements. As I said in another thread, Joe has painted himself into a corner with these guys and his big talk, but behind him in the corner is an unlocked door. He can say he tried to make deals but he wasn't going to just give away his guys.

    Hey, why couldn't we get Jermaine Oneal? T J Ford? We could've done better than that.
     
  5. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

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    I dont want O'Neals busted knees only playing 45 games for us. Let Toronto have him. Between Bosh and O'Neal they might have 2 good knees but I doubt it. O'Neals production has gone down even when he has played, he went from being a solid 20 and 10 guy to a 13 and 7 guy. I think Jmax can do better than that. Bosh is still getting better as a scorer but he shies away from rebounding and he has not played over 70 games the last 3 years either. Yes he can be great some nights he went for 40 a few times last year, but we would not be getting him in a trade anyway.

    I agree the starters are not the elite players they or Joe think they are but they can be when they want to. I think all this team needs is 1 starter shipped off regardless of who it is. They have heard they are on the block but do they get it?
     
  6. brofmfa

    brofmfa Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    And this door leads to our own selves farm system, because in way the league and market are running once whoever went into the pattern of no-superstar, win-by-team-work like we have been, by lucky or by will, for so many years, it will be hard to get a trade partner. Who would trade a star for a fraction of collective players who depend on each other to success.
    Blame on Joe for straying from the mainstream if you like, which I won't.
     
  7. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    But, how many GM's are saying the same thing about their top tier players, and what players they can trade to make their team better.

    Some teams have injury prone all-stars and all star caliber player(s), or player(s) who don't fit their style, system or coaches expectations.

    Joe D is not the only GM with player dilemna's.

    You can conceivably take 1 or 2 of our starters, put them on another team resulting in that team becoming an instant contender for the title.

    You can take someone like McGrady and put him on the Pistons team and he will be injury free (Ray Allen Syndrome).

    A healthy McGrady would propel us right back to the title. An over the hill Billups for an injury prone McGrady is a healthy trade because one issue cancels out the other.
     
  8. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    I like this post. In fact, I like this entire thread.
     
  9. Hobbs

    Hobbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Except there's been almost zero information hinting at Billups being over the hill (last year was one of his more consistent seasons with his FG% among other things being extremely high for a guy who takes that many 3's) while every single possible thing about McGrady point to him being injury prone AND being over the hill (check out his shooting %'s, they're all going down every season--he shot under 70% from the free throw line...).

    I understand that "theoretically" McGrady could shake off about 5 years of decline and injuries and become what he once was and that Billups could fall off the table even though there's little evidence he's near the edge, but "theoretical" isn't the same thing as likely.
     
  10. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Dont be so sure about Oneal and his health. His motivation has been in the basement ever since he made his mind up that he didnt want to play in Indiana. I personally feel that his "injuries" are not as debilitating as he let on while in Indiana.

    People made the same assumptions about "half man half a season" Vince Carter.
    LB wanted to trade Rip for him, and the forum thumbs down'ed it because Vince was an injury waiting to happen that would never be the same again.

    Shortly thereafter we got treated to this:

    YouTube - Vince Carter Dunks Over Alonzo Mourning
     
  11. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    One sign of an "over the hill" player is fading down the stretch. Chauncey has gotten less consistent come playoff time over the last few years, and that type of "evidence" should weigh heavier than any regular season "nerf bullet" stats he can put up in a system that favors point guards.

    Not that I'm too horribly high on T-Mac either. I just think Chauncey is on his way down,down,down.
     
  12. Hobbs

    Hobbs First Round Draft Pick

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    It would seem to me that you're looking for ways to frame the "stats" to align with your vision. It's hilarious to think that a player is young the entire regular season, but suddenly becomes decrepit during the playoffs. That's not how it works as there are far too many variables (starting with the fact that teams plan around how to stop Chauncey in the playoffs as their key thing to do against the Pistons) and never mind the fact that Chauncey was never terribly consistent during the playoffs anyway (he was horrible against Indiana before being great against the Lakers, for example).

    The Chauncey is over the hill stuff is based off scant evidence and seems perpetuated by the same group that think Chauncey's some kind of raging egomaniac because they are able to read the tea leaves of the cliches he uses during interviews. Whatever.

    He is the most likely guy to be traded, I'll grant that. We have a replacement on hand and point guards have great value on the market.
     
  13. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Actually, I'm framing the way people age and drawing a direct correlation.


    Before one reaches the point in which they just can't do the same things they did when they were younger, they reach a point where they can do the same things, only they can't do them for as long. That's where Chauncey is.
     
  14. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I'd just add.... Billiups looked really good till he got injured.. saying he was a step slow and such after the injury is sorta an unfair judgement...

    I do think he needs a task master head coach though, and I think we have that now in currey
     
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Slow recovery from injury....

    Another sign of age. :stirthepot:
     
  16. Mike Honcho

    Mike Honcho First Round Draft Pick

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    I couldn't agree more! I think the only thing that was wrong with Oneal was his attitude (I do think he got an injury initially but he milked the hell out of it).
     
  17. Mike Honcho

    Mike Honcho First Round Draft Pick

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    Did you say that last year or this year? ...Because it seems to be a pattern of him breaking down come playoff time. Maybe it is coincidence or maybe its is the fact that he is a PG over the age of 30 who used to drive the lane and play a very physical brand of basketball. I really like Chauncey, but I think you would be a fool to think his best years are ahead of him.
     
  18. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    After every playoff series, we always make excuses for Billups.

    What happened the last two playoff sereis when he was beaten badly by of all people, Boobie Gibson and Jason Williams.

    Billups in those two series looked old and slow. Remember the awful turnovers during the Cleveland series, OOPS, I forgot, that was only due to fatigue.

    Face it, CB is slow, every time he brings the ball up court, I just cringe, his passes are not crisp, I think he is allergic to taking it to the basket, his passing is so predictable and the shots he take with 22 left on the shot clock, I wish there were stats to keep a tab on how many times players do this. CB would win in this statistic hands down (ala Gilbert Arenas).

    He cried like a b----- when Chris Webber started making better passes than our point guard.

    CB needs to go, Joe needs to be working the phones night and day, listening to every and all offers. We need to rid ourselves of him before the GM's out there begin to see what members of this forum have recognized about his declining skill set.
     
  19. max

    max All-Star

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    Thats funny. :pound:
     
  20. hangtime

    hangtime First Round Draft Pick

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    All this talk about getting rid of CB scares me. If we get rid of him I think our new whine will then be finding a suitable back up for Stuckey. I'm beginning to think these guys are somewhat untradeable, which means our solutions may have to come from within.
    Even though I have never been an Amir backer, our only course may be starting him throughout the season as center, hoping his low post game develops.This would allow us to bring Dyess off the bench, preserving his aging knees for one more season. Does this help us beat Boston? Cleveland? I do not know.
     

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