The Larry Brown Curse

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by roscoe36, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Dumars sold his soul to the crossroads demon, dumping Carlisle (who would later go on to win a title with Dallas) for Larry Brown. This culminated in 2 trips to the Finals, and one NBA championship.

    The franchise then parted ways with Brown after the relationship became contentious before the first Finals appearance, and become completely toxic by the end of the second.

    Flip Saunders was brought in, a stepford coach who did nothing to improve the team, and basically holding the line at the Eastern Conference Finals 3 years in a row. The team had hit its ceiling.

    Brown, despite his personality defects, eccentricities, was and is a very respected man in the NBA coaching ranks, a group that is very much a fraternity, where guys have more loyalty to the coaching brotherhood than to their specific employers.

    Since Saunders has left, the Pistons have been through numerous coaches, some of them outright disasters, others bad fits. With poor personnel and cap management, the franchise is truly a bottom dweller. Already having trouble attracting any kind of talent over more powerful markets like NY, LA and Chicago, Detroit basketball hasn't been in this state since the early 1980s.

    I am not a big fan of the supernatural, but perhaps it was a very arrogant and unwise decision to part ways with Carlisle and Brown as the Pistons did. Maybe this is karma, maybe it is coincidence, but it looks a lot more like bad breakups with successful coaches hurts the franchise for much longer than it hurts that coach because his brothers in the NBA will make sure he lands softly, quickly.

    Food for thought.
  2. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I can't recall what if any was the issue with Carlisle other than HOF coach LB was available and the powers that be said lets grab him. Egos got in the way with Brown as Mr. D thought he was getting to big for his britches and of course there was issue with him chatting with the Cavs owner before the playoffs were done and that distraction enough was blamed for the 7 game loss to the Spurs. Maybe Joe should have talked some sense into both Larry and Mr.D... re did the contract and kept him under wrap while the team was still at it's zenith.
  3. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    We fired three good coaches. Carlisle, Brown, and Saunders all let go before their due date.
    The inmates then seized control of the team and it was downhill from there.
    Each of these three had issues which JD failed to correct. All their issues were correctable.
    JD must now walk the plank.
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  4. brofmfa

    brofmfa Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Did JD fire Carlisle and LB ? I believed it's mostly on Mr. D. than any others. Saunders'd never been a good coach in my book, he ran his top players to dead in regular seasons just in order to stack his own stat, that man had never had Pistons in his heart if he had one.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
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  5. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Apparently Carlisle was let go because Mr. D didn't like how he carried himself around the Pistons front office, it may have had something to do with the secretaries.

    Brown got on Mr. D's nerves before the Sheed trade, but because he won the title, they couldn't dump him and brought him back. He feuded with Joe over front office moves, and I think I recall someone saying that even if he had repeated, the Pistons were committed to getting rid of him because the relationship between both parties was so bad.
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  6. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    LB was high maintenance for sure. It would have been a lot of work to keep him satisfied while not trading the entire team.

    His quick trigger might have benefitted the franchise also by not letting it grow stale.

    They almost definitely would have made one more Finals has he stayed on through the Mike Curry year. Maybe even 2. (2006-07 and 2007-08)
  7. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    Carlisle was the only one of these three to have any success after the Pistons. As much as I liked Larry, I really thing Ricky C could have taken the Pistons to the Championship, and maybe repeated.
  8. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Three mistakes the Pistons.joe did between 2003 to 2009

    Drafted Darko, got rid of LB and traded younger Billups.

    Even if none of these transactions were Joe's ideas, whomever he had above and below and around him convinced him to go for it and now it is time for him to walkaway and let it be someone else's worry.

    Since there appears to be no 10 year anniversary of the 2004 championship team on the forefront, the next time we see Joe is in 15 years in 2029 celebrating that teams 25 year anniversary.
  9. hitafreethrow

    hitafreethrow Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Drafting Darko was the wrong decision, but who's to say if we would have drafted a different (now more successful) player, he would have even seen the floor. LB did not like playing the youth, and our rotation was hard to crack anyways. You never know.

    I think trading away Billups was a good idea, just did not get executed well. We should have traded him for youth and draft picks, instead we got an aging Iverson that couldn't play with our roster. Also, a past his prime, but in prime leadership form Dyess was sent off then as well. Two big character guys left our local room, replaced with a prima donna, and no leadership from the sidelines or front office. It's all on Joe, IMO.

    I liken the Carlisle v. LB situation very much to the Dungy v. Gruden argument in Tampa. Dungy built that team, had everything in place, and Gruden stepped in and won a title with the team.
  10. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    Circumstances led Carlisle to have success more than the others.
    I could easily say that he couldn't control his players that led to the brawl at the Palace.
    He was then dismissed the following year with a 35-47 record.
  11. Ernie the Slow Adult

    Ernie the Slow Adult All-Star Forum Donor

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    This feels like a chicken or the egg scenario. Was it the ownership, team management/Joe or losing LB that netted the pitiful haul they got for breaking up the Going to Work team? Compare them to the way the Celtics just broke up their aging contender.

    The C's got something like 145 first round picks for Pierce and Garnett. They have a capable, committed ownership, a smart front office and they were able to keep their championship coach in place for the entire run.

    Doc Rivers knew how hard he could push these guys throughout the season. Keeping him also meant that they kept their system in place which made it easier for them not to play their key guys to death. This is how they 'showcased" their players.

    The Pistons meanwhile were running Sheed for almost 40 MPG on their West Coast trip during the Mike Curry year while telling the world what he couldn't do.

    Detroit Pistons at Sacramento Kings Box Score, November 11, 2008 | Basketball-Reference.com
    Detroit Pistons at Golden State Warriors Box Score, November 13, 2008 | Basketball-Reference.com - The Pistons played on TNT!!!
    Detroit Pistons at Los Angeles Lakers Box Score, November 14, 2008 | Basketball-Reference.com - On top of playing 39+ minutes he was drawing plays for Kwame Brown on the bench!

    I don't think that would have happened with Pound. Mr. D couldn't have that though. LB had to go so Joe could fixate on finding the next Vinnie Johnson and stocking the roster with half-challenged guys.

    The reality is that CCG and Gordon were the crown jewels of breaking this team up. Dyess, Sheed, and Rip left for nothing just like Monroe will. Hopefully they can find a way to ship someone like KCP out simultaneously just like they did with Afflalo so they can sign some other stiff.
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  12. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Larry, who knows? Big ability, bigger ego, always looking for some greener grass somewhere else. There are lots of folks like that in the business world - good enough and smart enough to lure you into hiring them, but always with an eye out for the next gig. Even if he had lasted another year or even two, he was never a "permanent" solution.

    Cola at the time was a pretty abrasive personality - didn't play well with the children, etc. Maybe he could have gotten over that without the wake-up call of getting fired, but maybe not. Maybe getting fired enabled him to change his ways enough to be successful in Dallas.

    I can't figure out what I think about Flip. It's hard to argue with success. After the defensive rules changed post '04 he had to figure out new ways to win with the same group of guys and he did that pretty successfully. But once the old team oriented defense first approach that won one title and nearly another got taken away at least somewhat by rule changes, it just may not have been possible for that group to win it all again. One might argue that Flip figured that out (the shift from grind it out defense to a more flowing offense) even before Pops who took the Spurs in that direction a few years later. And Joe didn't bring in any help to match up with Wade, James, etc. who got calls if you looked at them for a couple of years there. It was a team built for a different time and Flip did pretty well with it, and made Joe a hero even though all he did during those years was ride the coattails.
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  13. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Great post!
  14. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    We had great youth potential with afflalo and amir. Trading cb a few games into that season crushed me.
  15. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    That's the nicest thing I've ever read about Flip. Thanks DBA..........
  16. max

    max All-Star

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    Have to keep in mind the terrible free agent losses we sustained in the summer of 04. Okur, Mike James, Corliss Williamson. The bench was decimated and rebuilt with strings and duck tape. Dyess was good but he was not that good to make up for all the lost production.

    in 05, hate to bring it up but Indy was the team to beat that year before the brawl and in the 05 semi finals - would we still have beaten Miami if Wade has not got hurt in game 5?

    Anyway, beyond that its just a case of bad management. No matter who's side you choose in the LB departure we all have to agree that Flip was the wrong coach at the wrong time. Not a very good one to begin with and he has not been able to keep a job since. Just a terrible coach.

    Then after that look at all the mistakes, just one after another.
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  17. Nemo

    Nemo Pun Master Forum Donor

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    Flip was the whole enchilada. Sandwich.

    [​IMG]

    He personified "Goin to work"

    [​IMG]

    He may not have been another Popovich

    [​IMG]

    But for me...he was a game changer...

    [​IMG]

    Start your day like this.

    [​IMG]
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  18. max

    max All-Star

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    I agree with that but I still contend that LB wanted to get fired. He wanted a buyout so he could take that Huge offer Isiah Thomas offered when he was running the Knicks.
  19. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I am not trying to paint LB as a good guy. I have been around long enough to know everyone has some blood on their hands.
  20. max

    max All-Star

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    I am not blaming him as it was good business sense. Plus he was development coach and may have been getting bored with Pistons. needed a new challange.

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