The race for the most ping pong balls

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by BillLaimbeer, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. Mogilny

    Mogilny All-Star Forum Donor

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    The losing team should move on in the lottery tourney and the "winner" of the whole thing should play a "humiliation game" against the best D-league team. This team gets the first overall pick but if they lose the humiliation game they have to use it to pick someone in that D-league team. Those D-leaguers would fight like tigers since one of them will get the guaranteed salary the no 1 pick gets.
    Walter likes this.
  2. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    I think that we can all agree that this is a lost season (with the exception of maybe lee).

    As a fan, wins and losses don't matter to me this season. For me, it's all about positioning the team for future success. I want to see our young players getting better and our older players being utillized for trades to better our situation moving forward. If you aren't part of the future - you need to be part of the past. The present should be reserved for the likes of BK, Greg Monroe, JJ and V-Mack to:
    1. get playing time
    2. get touches
    3. learn from their successes/failures

    If I paid money to see a game this year and those things happend, I'd feel like I got my money's worth. I don't care if Tay Prince gives us the best shot at winning. If he's taking time away from seeing Jeb at SF, I'm not really interested in watching that. If our young guys can put it together and win some games, I'll be stoked to see that. That's good experience for them.

    As for all of the other players that are on this roster, they are nothing to me except potential assets to aquire younger/better talent. Trade, release or waive 'em all for all I care. I'd rather take a shot at seeing if a young D-Leager can bawl rather than run Jason Maxiel out there so he can have a good game once a month.

    Give me some young, hungry guys with upside instead of some old jaded guys with nothing but downside.

    Every play call, substitution and roster move should be made with next season in mind. This season is nothing but a 66 game tryout as far as I'm concerned.
    Slippy, basketbills, mercury and 2 others like this.
  3. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    You do realize this month is NOT over yet?
  4. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    easy, maxiell already has filled his obligation in January... I'm sure Pistons accountant hands Maxiell's monthly paycheck over quite happily. Charlie "Greece" Villaneuva, on the other hand, has to...take Pistons staff in hostage AGAIN: if you do not pay, I'll collapse, don't you see I'm already injured?
  5. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    If Larry Frank had any brains he'd bench max until Wednesday.
  6. The Panda

    The Panda All-Star Forum Donor

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    Deadweight is really important for that first part. Big contracts with long terms and options are fine - if the player is any good. Giving BG a 5 year contract, and that soft, fat heap of **** a similar $8m a year contract is staggeringly bad. Thats $20m a year between them that we can't spend on a player who has production. Now don't get me wrong, BG has got some talent but FFS, CV?

    Back to long term rebuilding through the draft. If we pick a superstar next year to go with Munroe and Knight, then what? We still have two years of dead weight contract, which means we can't offer big resigns to Munroe or Knight and we run the possibility of losing them. Building through the draft is a secondary concern to me next to creating liquidity in our salary cap. People are throwing around Dwight, but I think we give up far too much to get him, plus he don't want to be in Detroit. But a trade for contract weight and a short term FA seems the way forward for me over just giving up on the season to get a decent pick.
    basketbills likes this.
  7. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    My perspective on this is that you shouldn't take a deal made 3 years ago and judge it by today's standards. In 2009 we lost Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess. Our front line was Ben Wallace, Chris Wilcox and Kwame Brown. The knock on the signings then was why Dumars didn't wait until 2010 and got in the bidding war in the big free agent market.

    Signing Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva made sense. Plus we could actually get them to come here. Who signs up with Detroit? Washed up guys looking for a Billups miracle. Ben and CV were around 25-26. At least 6 years younger than the guys going out and 4 years younger than Rip or Tay. They had broken out a bit in their careers and both had flaws in their game. But so did Billups and Rip.

    The team that Dumars finally presented in 2009 was a dismal failure with 2 guys who needed to play the same position and a cadre of uncharismatic spare parts. The coaching carousel finally came to bite the Pistons in the ass. We got a string of bargain basement coaches. None of them panned out. If you want a billups miracle, you need 2 things: oppportunity and coaching. We gave Ben neither and he showed it.

    Whether Mrs. Davidson had anything to do with tying Dumars' hand is pure speculation. But the rough dates are these: March 2009 Bill Davidson passes away. July 2009 Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva are signed. January 2010 Karen Davidson confirms sale of Pistons. She had hopes to complete the sale by the start of 2010 with Illitch being in 'exclusive negotiations.' August 2010 we sign Tracy Mcgrady. April 2011 Davidson and Gores reach an agreement. December 2011 Pistons waive Hamilton.

    In 2011, after the sale and lockout, we finally did what people assumed was going to happen when we signed Ben Gordon...we moved Hamilton.

    Today people look at Ben and CV and all they see is the bad contract/performance ratio and money they could spend elsewhere. Those contracts were not signed this year. We had opportunities to make them work out but, for whatever reason, never did. Now, we are committed to the lottery so it shouldn't work out. We'll have family matters and flu like symptoms all year long.

    If you look back that the last two years and look at who we could have got (really, who could we have gotten? who would have come to Detroit realistically speaking) or who we could have gotten in the lottery, we wouldn't be in a much different place. Would be be back in the hunt for the conference title? I'm estatic about Monroe. I'm happy with Knight because that kid is working and you can see it.

    At any rate, Stuckey, Gordon and CV are all set to expire at the same time. Prince will be expiring the year after that. We should have a core of three lottery talents to build around if we don't want those guys back - or if we want to deal expirings for something better.
  8. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think that the reaction to the CV and BG signings was pretty mixed here. They were very uncharacteristic signings for JD. They were both basically bench players with an above average ability to score and below average defensive abilities. On top of that, we already had guys at their positions who were better than them.
  9. The Panda

    The Panda All-Star Forum Donor

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    Awesome post!

    I totally agree with that second paragraph. But hindsight is 20/20. I like BG as a player, obviously I dislike CV but that's a story for another day. But my point still stands, as far as I am concerned, salary liquidity is just as, if not more, important that the draft rebuilding process. There is no point signing brand spankers if you can't keep the cornerstones of your franchise. In all honesty, I would keep BG and his stupid salary, amnesty CV for the draft and keep the difference - but be willing to spend it when the time comes.

    We have plenty of players, but only 8 of them are really seeing regular game time. Its ludicrous that one of the most expensive ones has had a mysterious ankle injury. I'm assuming he got ankle broken by a bookcase because it didn't happen during basketball. He doesn't play that game. We waived Hamilton, leaving the new Amnesty clause at our fingertips, and I still struggle to see why it hasn't been used. If we need a back up PF, sign some min cost chump to cover for injuries for two years maximum.
  10. raxrets

    raxrets Team Captain

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    Yeah, most of forumites suffer under heavy "grass is greener everywhere but not here" disease - they bring up only positive signings by others "see that guy was signed there and this GM is a genius" but very conveniently "fail" to notice myriads of signings "oops it did not work"- by the same "genius GMs" couple of years ago, for instance. I do not have math at mu hand right now, but I can guess - for every sucessful signings there are 3-5 unsucessful. Market teams simply "can" absorb bad contracts(lux tax -no problem)and/or attract star players - even by overpaying. Heck, even the rise of San Antoni started by pure luck - AllStar David Robinson injured and they got no 1 draft pick. There was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - a GM could do. It's the same story for Chicago - from 7th pick they got to no 1 from draft. You need insane luck for it. Also Detroit is very far from attractive market team, even Silvertongue has reluctantly mentioned it.

    As one VERY EXPERIENCED has said - you can only sign players and PRAY - you've made the right choice, nobody has a crystal ball.
    BallDon'tLie and coynejeremy like this.
  11. round

    round All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion

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    here is as good as any spot.... the get of of jail card with a players contract is only usable for a short period during the summer, so if we choice to use it on CV we can't use it till next summer. So even if today Joe has decided to do that move... he'd be a total moron to announce it, there would go any chance (I know a tiny one at this point) of trading him away and getting something of value in return.

    Folks need to judge Joe on the track record looking back a few years to see how things worked out. He might be in a run of pure brilliance buiding a title contender right now, or he might be making us the new clippers.... only time will tell though...

    I do give him a pass till told otherwise on his lack of movement from the time CV and Ben were signed till the lockout ended though, just think he had plans that were put on hold by ownership.
  12. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    That was a solid assessment Slip.

    You're right, those contracts weren't signed this year. THIS year Joe made made his big free-agent splash by bringing back "team redundant" in the form of Tayshaun Prince and Rodney Stuckey. Prince is a guy that would be waaaaaaay better suited playing for a contender and with Stuck, Joe bid against himself and overpaid by several million dollars.

    I'm pretty convinced that the lottery is the best way forward. In the meantime, Joe should be spending wisely on upside guys that could/can be a part of the future. Instead of coughing up 14 1/2 million per year for a guy that slows down your offense and a 5th year rookie guard, Joe could have saved a lot of cash. I would have been happier if he simply let Tay and Stuck walk and signed some freaking D-league dudes. We were destined to lose this year anyway.

    The following "realistic" players were FAs last summer and could have been had at a much lower price and would have been better options than Stuck and Tay:
    Specer Hawes
    Chuck Hayes
    Josh McRoberts
    CJ Miles
    Troy Murphy
    Nick Young
    Thad Young
    Reggie Evans
    Sam Dalembert
    Shannon Brown
    Marco Belinelli

    Are these guys the answer? HECK no. But they could have been had on the cheap and most are young enough to fill supporting roles for our lottery picks. And IMO, they were all realistic possibilities to come to Detroit with the promise of a bigger role than the one they have now.

    I put this list together quickly and I admit that I didn't research every single name to analyize their situation down to a microscopic level. I went based on what I've seen and know about these guys and tried to picture them as Pistons. There might be some additional guys that could have been had and I urge everyone to post their names for discussion. I'm sure that many will be tempted to look at this list of guys and pick them apart. I'm sure a few will compare some head-to-head stats and make a case for Tay or Rodney. This list isn't about that.

    I composed this list based on the fact that all of these guys make less money and still have a lot of years left in the league. While some have more upside than others, every one of them would either be a better fit or provide Joe with some additional fluidity from a contract perpective. We'd still be in the lottery this Spring, we'd just be in a better position to build a team and add additional pieces sooner rather than later.
    Slippy likes this.
  13. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Good stuff, BDL. I think Joe D simply becomes too personally attached to his guys, over-rates their true value, and rewards them for unbenownst reasons.
  14. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    In addition, I think that maybe many of those same people know that and take advantage of that.

    I think Dumards came into the job as (A) a really "nice guy" with (B)a lot of integrity who (C) had a whole lot to learn about becoming a successful General Manager.

    I'm sure that he is still a (A) "nice guy". But I'm guessing that he had to (B) compromise some of that integrity to do a job where (C) he learned that (A) and (B) do not equal (C).
  15. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I agree. This situation is different than the BG/CV situation. Dumars and Frank said veteran presence but all I see is the ball stopping at Tay and Monroe getting mad. Hell we are all getting mad.
    Add BJ mullens to the list. He signed for 1 mil 1 yr. Dumars would have given him 2 mil 2 yrs. that's how we roll baby! All the guys listed except nick young were possible to get. We STILL are overloaded at the Sf spot and don't have anything at the PF spot.
    At this point I don't want to speculate on what could have made us better. If, next year, or in 2 yrs, these contracts contine to remain albatrosses like the BG/ cv contract, I'll jump on the complaint bandwagon.

    More than one person argued that the lottery isn't the way to a contender but it's a legit strategy. If nothing else, the pick itself could valuable in a trade
  16. J-Train

    J-Train Team Captain Forum Donor

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    The BG/CV signings were gambles, and they hurt us. There's no getting around that. The hope was that BG could turn into an Arenas like scoring force. That didn't happen. He's regressed. You could say that the CV deal was reminiscent of the Billups signing. The main difference is that Billups early inconsistency was due to learning the position, not effort. Billups has always been a competitor. CV has dogged it since high school, and his last year with the Bucks felt like a contract year performance more than him "turning the corner". I can't wait until these guys are expiring contracts.

    I like Stuckey a whole lot more than most people around here, but even I'm a little perplexed about his contract. He was overpaid to the tune of two million a year, minimum. Still, this team needs players. This is the worst team in Franchise history. Can you even imagine what this team would look like without Stuckey and Prince?

    Let's go lottery!
  17. Nemo

    Nemo The Great Predictor Forum Donor

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    We're playing below .200 basketball. That is the lowest level that a team can play. I would have preferred to see how the team woulda fared without these two, at any price. So without them we approach .150 basketball and get a look at the utes (our worst possible senario). That path sounds much better than the one we're on. Besides.....we'd be talking here about our next FA signings......instead of watching that window stay closed, and then just dream of draft choices.
  18. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Yes I can... ABSOLUTELY!

    I imagine up to 3 younger, hungrier and cheaper FAs developing and growing along side of Monroe, Knight and Jonas.
    I imagine better ball movement and more running.
    I imagine a possible two-man platoon of scrappy bigs shot-blocking bigs to help take some of the defensive load off of Greg Monroe and help guard the rim.
    I imagine having a two-guard who can shoot from outside AND take his man off the dribble (what a concept).
    I imagine a happier Greg Monroe and an increased opportunity to re-sign him once his rookie deal expires.
    I imagine a SF or a SG with freakish athleticism.
    I imagine a happier Tayshaun Prince playing on a contender (I still can't believe he re-upped w/Detroit)
    I imagine a lot less shot clock violations and charging fouls.
    I imagine watching some young dudes playing their butts off trying to make names for themselves.

    I imagine us still in the lottery but in a MUCH better position to turn things around in 2 years rather than 4 years.
  19. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    EXACTAMUNDO!!!!!!!!!!!
  20. Walter

    Walter All-Star Forum Donor

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    The fact of the matter is, we played the best ball of this season when Prince, BG, CV and Bynum were all unavailable.

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