This team needs a LEGIT center in the worst way

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by blueadams, Dec 27, 2011.

  1. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I would not be Joe D bashing if I thought for a minute that he appeared to have a plan on how he was going to rebuild the team. Like someone above stated, in 2002, 2003 and 2004, he continued to add pieces (bricks Analogy), one by one he added Ben, then Rip, Chauncey (as the general to run the team), McDyess to fortify the bench,Tayshaun then pulling off a coup to add the final piece Rasheed Wallace. I don't see that this time around. It appears that he is lost in the mukity muck. He keeps adding bad late round draft picks, washed up players, players no-one wants or needs, damaged goods players and lastly players that can be had on the cheap.

    I have always felt that the rebuilding process is done through a combination of the draft, trades and free agency. I would be grateful if Dumars would pick up a half dozen late first and second round picks with high upside and/or trade for a first rounder or two. We could of had a first round pick (Dallas), but Joe chose to hang onto Tayshaun. Very bad move IMHO.

    I was watching the WIzards last night, they have some serious talent with all those young cats. They will have a helluva team once they add a couple of quality vets to the mixx.. If the GM don't muck it up, these guys are going to make some noise in the future growing up together. Right now our team is just a hodge podge of everything, heinz 57, too much of this and nothing of that. We have to be the shortest, worst shooting and less athletic team in the NBA. I predict that we will win 8-10 games this year. Any more than this would absolutely floor me.

    I say, take Monroe, Brandon and Jerebko and start adding seriously young athletic talent around them. We will not see Monroe's true talent until we add an athletic center and move him to his natural position of Power Forward. All those who are gaga over Daye, he is just a tall guy that can shoot and that's it. He will never become a defensive stopper, ever.
  2. Brap

    Brap Starter

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    Of course he has a plan. Every GM in the league has a plan. But for Pete's sake, he hasn't had any permission until 1 month ago to do anything. He couldn't make trades, couldn't sign anyone, couldn't do squat.

    The only valid complaint about his current plan can be made a year from now, and then 2 and 3 years from now, when we see how his plan turned out.
  3. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    Do you think Joe will survive 2 or 3 more years? Gores has him on a short leash and based on what he's done so far the Pistons will be moving on without him.
  4. Brap

    Brap Starter

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    I don't know. Maybe Gores thinks like some of us fans, that you need to stink for awhile to amass a couple/three superstars in the draft. (That's what I think, and a lot of other people have made that argument). If so, then that would be 180 degrees away from what Joe has always said in public. In that case, that's pretty much the definition of irreconcilable differences.

    Or maybe that isn't so important a difference, since it sure seems like we're going to be pretty lousy this year and next year (as we get even younger), and maybe the year after that, when we shed the contracts of Gordon and CV and Maxiell. So maybe Joe is kept on because it's going to turn out Gores way anyways.

    Or maybe Gores sees Joe D as I do: super qualified, high caliber, and a guy who does a great job developing a plan and running with it. Some super BB guy is going to be running this team. If it's not Joe D, then who?

    But you're right ... what Gores does is an open question right now. I'll bet he'll start out slowly and will be a lot more proactive a year or two from now. By proactive, I mean that I can see a day when he wants to trade veterans in return for draft picks or young prospects. I don't see Gores ever being o.k. with being a mediocre or pretty good team: I think he's in it to win it.
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  5. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Building through the draft! LMBO. Yeah that happens ALL THE TIME. I like Brap, I really do, but I couldn't disagree more. The draft is a HUGE crap shoot, go back and look at the draft Stuckey came out of, Acie Law? Is he still in the league? Al Thronton, who most felt was waaay better than Stuck, currently a Free Agent that nobody has picked up. Javaris Crittendon? Your plan can not be to suck and build through the draft, it just doesn't happen like that! Many teams that find themselves in the lottery have a hard time finding their way out of it.

    I'm with Blue in terms of Greg Monroe, I like GM, but I don't love him. Greg is not a franchise player, he is not a big that you hold on to long term. Greg is a good player that can help a great player. The title of this thread is: this team needs a LEGIT center in the worst way; I say we need a Legit WHATEVER in the worst way. PG-SG-SF-PF-C you name it-we need it. None of these guys are going to be GREAT players, but they're all going to be good to decent players and that does us no good what-so-ever. Somebody please tell me the player on this team that you see playing today and you honestly think they are going to be a BEAST in this league.

    JJ is a guy you bring off your bench, he's the type of guy that would make OKC unstoppable. He's not the guy you build around or even with, once you build it, you bring him in as icing on the cake.

    Greg Monroe is a good PF/C who would fit in playing alongside Tim Duncan or as the 3rd Big (in a 3 Big rotation) in Memphis.
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  6. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    No one is handing out this magical franchise player for our scraps. The teams that find their way out of the gutter are generally teams that have been awful, and landed a top pick or 2 (OKC - Durant, CHI - Rose, LAC - Griffin, etc). This is especially important when you're not in a market that attracts free agents, and do not have another superstar that other good players want to play with. Trades? Say we give up everything needed to land a guy like Dwight Howard. What's left? Certainly not enough to keep him from leaving at his first chance. The draft may be a crapshoot, but it gives you the best chance at getting a franchise player that you have any time to build a team around.

    Regarding Monroe- He's 21, so obviously he still has some time to develop into a better player. As he is now, a 21 year old walking double-double is most definitely a big you hang on to. If he were on another team, everyone here would be clamoring for him. Just because he may not be the be-all end-all doesn't mean he's not worth hanging on to.
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  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Which are 9 worse teams?
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  8. Brap

    Brap Starter

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    I think it's almost obvious that it's a race between the Pistons and Charlotte for the most ping pong balls. Is anyone else anywhere near as badly balanced as the Stones?
  9. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Fesenko is off the board? I'm so done with this season.
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  10. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    We do need a center, this much I can agree with.
    Whether Joe has a plan or not is another issue, and I guess we'll see what happens.
  11. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    I think that part of the problem is that in order to get back to the top, you need to destroy. Most GM's are probably scared to do that because they will lose their jobs while they execute on that plan. It must be tempting to keep trying to make the best of each season while everyone around you kisses your butt and the paychecks keep coming.
  12. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    I've gone back to at least 1980 for all of the past NBA champions and each winner acquired at least 1 of their best 2 players via the draft, except you guessed it - the '04 Pistons.
    Even the Mavs who won it all last year by assembling a group of veterans still obtained their best player in the draft (Nowitzki).
    The Celtics also assembled their big 3 through trades, but Pierce has been there since day 1.
    00's Spurs - Duncan
    06 Heat - Wade
    00's Lakers - Kobe
    90's Bulls - Jordan
    90's Rockets - Olajuwon
    80's Pistons - Isiah
    80's Lakers - Magic
    80's Celtics - Bird

    Building a team the way Joe did may have been a stroke of genius, or it may have been a fluke (or both), but it is certainly not the established method.


    KGreg, you are talking about guys who were drafting in the teens. When most people talk of building through the draft they are talking about top 5 picks. I wouldn't consider our last 2 picks to be building through the draft, let alone the Stuckey pick.
  13. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Let's look at how Danny Ainge assembled Boston, so this is what KG and Ray Allen cost Boston:
    • A 24 year old Delonte West going into his 4th year, in his 3rd season he avg'd 12ppg and 4.5 Asts
    • Wally Szczerbiak coming off of a season where he avg'd 15ppg off the bench.
    • The 5th pick in the 2007 draft, Jeff Green who came in as a rookie to Avg 10.5ppg and 5rpg.
    • A 22 year old Al Jefferson going into his 4th year, in his 3rd season he avg'd 16ppg and 11rpg
    • A 25 year old Ryan Gomes going into his 3rd year, in his 2nd season he avg'd 12ppg and 5.6rpg and shot 38% from the 3pt line.
    • A 21 year old Gerald Green, a 6'8" high-flying SG who in just second year in the NBA gave them 10ppg off the bench.
    • 2 1st round picks in the 2009 draft.
    Ainge gave up a bunch of young talent to get a championship contender and a ring. Most of you guys would have NEVER mad those moves because you're TOO jaded by these young players on our team, they're GOOD players, and that's all they'll ever be, their greatest value is in a trade, even Monroe and JJ. Looking back it seems as if Boston gave up a bunch of crap in that trade, but at the time they were young players full of potential, I give Ainge credit for seeing that most of those guys were not going to become stars, so he sent ALL of that young POTENTIAL packing for some guys who can PLAY! Joe had the nerve to give our Delonte West (Rodney Stuckey) and Wally Szczerbiak (Tayshaun Prince) new contracts.
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  14. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    But that's my point Webz! If you're going to build through the draft you can only do that with one of the top 3 picks in the draft. You gave great examples, now go back and look at all of the other picks in those drafts and see where those players ended up. In any draft you find more Sam Bowies than you find Jordan's, even in the Top 5 spots. Lastly IF you're going to build through the draft then you actually need to SUCK, and what does Joe do? Chews up our cap space with Gordon, CharlieV, Tay and Stuckey! Seriously? Do we really need to pay $60M to stink? At least keep the money so we can have some cap flexibility.
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  15. webz

    webz All-Star Snub Administrator 2x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Yeah I know, I agree, it's very difficult to win building through the draft and there are no guarantees, but obviously it has been the formula that most teams that go on to win a championship have been successful with. And I also agree that we are in no man's land with our team. We don't suck enough to get one of those top 3 picks and we aren't in the playoffs. The direction of this team is very concerning.
  16. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Joe's draft picks:

    Vernon Macklin- $0.5M bench
    Kyle Singler- (X)
    Brandon Knight- $2.6M 6th man
    Greg Monroe- $3M starter
    Austin Daye- $1.9M bench
    DaJuan Summers- $0.9M (Hornets) bench
    Jonas Jerebko- $4.5M starter
    D. J. White- (X)
    Deron Washington- (X)
    Rodney Stuckey- $8.3M starter
    Arron Afflalo- $8.1M (Nuggets) starter
    Sammy Mejia- (X)
    Will Blalock- (X)
    Jason Maxiell- $5M bench
    Amir Johnson- $5.5M (Raptors) starter
    Alex Acker- (X)
    Rickey Paulding- (X)
    Darko Milicic- $4.8M (Timberwolves) starter
    Carlos Delfino- $3.5M (Bucks) starter
    Andreas Gliniadakis- (X)
    Tayshaun Prince- $6.9M starter
    Rodney White- (X)
    Mehmet Okur- $10.9M (Nets) bench
    Mateen Cleeves- (X)
    Brian Cardinal- $1.4M (Mavericks) bench

    So, it is interesting to note that there are still 15 guys in the NBA that he has drafted... so let's see what kind of team that would make.

    PG: Stuckey/ Knight
    SG: Afflalo/ Delfino/ Summers
    SF: Prince/ Jerebko/ Daye
    PF: Amir/ Okur/ Maxiell/ Macklin/ Cardinal
    C: Monroe/ Milicic

    Total team payroll = $66.8M
    This would put us 11th in the league and we'd have Okur's $10.9M salary dropping off the books next year. Could resign him for peanuts.

    This is building from the draft for a team that has pretty much been at the end of the draft every single year due to the ECF accomplishments. And this isn't cherry picking the guys that Joe could have picked at each position, it's the one's that he actually did pick... flaws and all. I didn't even include Chase Buddinger, who is currently an NBA starter, since the pick was traded before Joe selected him.

    With that team above, you could easily imagine wheeling and dealing yourself toward a title through trades and FA signings.

    Sort of a demented exercise, but I had to lay it out to see how it looked.


    I just want to reiterate that in 3 years, the Lakers will be paying Kobe $30M for the 2014 season. Going out on a limb and guessing that he's not going to live up to that one.
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  17. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I sooo agree with you FP. The successful teams have drafted one beast of a player D Howard, Durant i.e. then go on to build their team around this player. As a result, free agents want to play with this team because of this franchise player.

    Did anone ever believe in a million years Chris Paul would be playing with the CLIPPERS. "Come on Man", the Clips. He is only palying their because of Blake Griffin.
  18. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I am tracking with you all the way Kgreg. Only thing is I think Monroe can be a great player, not a HOF player. He needs to play alongside a franchise center, he will blossom if that happens.
  19. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Draft?
    Free Agency?
    ...why not BOTH!

    I don't think the argument is about one or the other. I think you need a combination of both in order to experience success. You need quality youngsters playing above their rookie contracts to go along with smart, sensible FA signings that compliment the type of team that you're putting out on the floor each night.

    You gotta maximize EVERY roster spot and every dollar in the salary cap. You certainly can't spend a HUGE chunk of your budget on 4 guys named Stuckey, Prince, Gordon & Garbage.
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  20. max

    max All-Star

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    For the longest time Dumars talked of a new NBA where Centers were outdated, thats when he wanted to model the Pistons after the Phoenix Sun ( even though they never won anything ). He signed fineese guys ( CV, BG ) and thought them along with Rip and Stuckey would quicken the pace and outscore the opponent.

    Is he even back on page looking for size? Does not seem like front court size is still much of a priority.

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