Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Jumpman313G, Dec 6, 2008.

  1. Blue

    Blue First Round Draft Pick

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Reading Langlois' blog today, it does appear that Joe D and Curry did discuss the recent starting line-up change (True Blue Pistons; see the third bullet point), so he was at least on board with the idea even if it wasn't his all-together.
     
  2. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    It may be healthy to do some fact finding...
    Are our expectations unreasonable based on the teams lengthy success? In otherwords have we become spoiled beotches wanting that shinny new toy every Christmas in a down economy.
    In the history of the game how many teams have maintained an elite standard for 7 consecutive years?... the only teams that come to mind are the C's, Lakers & Spurs...the odds are highly stacked against this type of consitent excellence...
    Good players on winning teams are the envy of every GM with cap $'s... draft picks in the high 20s eventually catch up to you (irregardless of what homers think about our younguns)...
    Re-signing proven talent keeps your team in MLE land.
    So what right do we have to say that our squad should be one the few to buck the trend?
    Intellegent management like Joe will recognize the collision course with mediocrity and take proactive measures that the fan base is unwilling to understand/accept... all that most can see is what's in front of them at the moment.... even though there's clear evidence supporting Joe's moves.... like...
    Sheed was regressing... Chauncey's performance to salary ratio will soon be considered a boat anchor contract (ala Ben)... we don't have the "star caliber" youth ... talking Bosh, Howard etc to override the aging vets inevitable decline (possibly heading for years of teal) without positioning cap assets to quickly reload talent.

    Joe's challenge today is to make the team appear to look like they are not on a downward spiral so that he can keep F.A.s (including our own) interested.. if we went into full youth movement (major minutes while benching vets) there would a real possibility of not making the playoffs... lottery picks do not guarantee short term success (Clippers, OKC, Minny).

    Blowup is too strong a term... Intellegent retooling seems to be in order for 2008/09 including on the job training for MC.

    Acceptance of reality will set you free
     
  3. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Fantastic post Merc.
     
  4. BallDon'tLie

    BallDon'tLie All-Star 3x Fantasy Champion

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Great post Merc!

    IMO, we CAN still win this year WHILE in the midst of the rebuilding process. The AI trade is duel purpose:
    1. Change the dynamic of a team that couldn't get over the hump the last 3/4 years.
    2. Make essentially, a "deferred trade" of a vet player prior to his value declining for a player/players in 2010 in the interest of reloading rather than rebuilding. Whoever Joe signs in the summer of 2010 was basically traded for Chauncey.

    Would you trade Chauncey straight-up for:
    Chris Bosh?
    Kobe?
    LeBron?
    Wade?
    Paul Pierce?
    Yao?
    Amare?
    Tony Parker?
    Caron Butler?

    Joe has put himself in a realistic position to actually land one of those guys or a combination of multiple players that will provide Pistons fans with a very good team.

    ...in the meantime, MC seems willing to see what we have with different lineups (small-ball not withstanding) and they STILL have an opportunity to come together and go deep in the playoffs.
     
  5. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Great post!
     
  6. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    I don't agree with that. What makes you say that? Ben was all physical energy and effort. CB is all experience, shooting, and leadership. Right now, CB is paid about 60% of what he'd be fetching in a free agent market for a 1-year contract.
     
  7. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Let's revisit this next year... If the Nuggs make it to the finals I'll glady detract... If your belief is that CB (and his contract) would get us past Boston then you may want to reconsider.
     
  8. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    You quote for me first where I claim that you said Curry has no positive aspects. I said you are choosing to ignore them.

    There isn't even a post of separation between my quote and your response and yet you've already managed an attempt to obfuscate the issue.
    I thought it was a matter of "If we are not talking about winning a championship this year or the next, then this debate has wasted quite a bit of server space."- MotownPride.
    Actually that is slightly incorrect.
    What I said was that if lack of positive experience can be used against Curry, then the list of negative moments that litter the resume's of the other candidates out there are surely being considered as well.
    There is always the possibility that those failures, in some cases grand ones, outweighed their positive aspects in Joe's mind more than the one count of lack of Finals coaching experience outweighed Curry's.
    Then you don't understand it. I look at the entire body of work. If I don't see anything exemplary from experienced candidates that leads me to believe that they are going to perform contrary to how they have performed in the past then I am more than willing to endorse a less experienced individual that has proven to possess the skills I desire in what experience they do have.
    This happens in the corporate world all of the time.
    Actually it would be 26.8%. I wasn't too concerned with reaching for the calculator at the time. This represents a 60 win season in the NBA. Corporations in todays marketplace aren't going to tolerate an 80% hit rate, much less 73%, yet in the NBA a 60 win season has people singing your praises.
    It's not the same, it's really not even close. First off, Curry's best comparison would be first line management, not high level exec. Unfortunately, even this scenario falls short the moment you consider that he is getting paid far less than the individuals he manages.
    Once again, comparing the NBA to real world jobs is completely off base IMO. Perhaps your personal situation does mimic this dynamic. It wouldn't surprise me, since you seem to be in an extraordinarily autonomous management situation as it is. Many people don't have the luxury to make termination decisions completely independent of HR and Legal. Heck, many times the standard of criteria by which their employees are judged isn't even completely theirs, seeing as how your situation is different perhaps it does mimic the NBA more closely, though I would hope you are getting paid more than those you supervise.

    Those were all first year coaches that got fired? Whitman,Theus,Mitchell, P.J....no...who else? I don't know who else, but I do know that the lack of congruence with Mike Curry's situation makes that stat fairly irrelevant.

    I attempt? You're joking right?

    "Went out the window".....not an absolute term now?

    You already want Joe to terminate this guy....once again, this isn't an absolute thing?

    I'm not attempting to "convert" anything.
    In my opinion, you've chosen to be pessimistic for roughly the same internal reasons that others have chosen to be optimistic and I have chosen to sit in the middle and acknowledge the merits of both sides.
    There's nothing wrong with that, but it sure as heck isn't an opinion based on some sort of scientific method that you can defend by ruling out the merits of the other choices and coming to one true and correct conclusion. That simply isn't the way it works.

    I understand your arguments. I feel that they have merit, I will not however, discount the merits of the opposing points of view. Once again, I can see where both sides could be right in the end.

    Consequently, championship or no championship, no matter what you say I'm never going to say Joe's opinion during his decision to hire Curry was stupid anymore than I am going to say yours is. I simply don't feel that way even if you do.
     
  9. Nemo

    Nemo Fantasy-Football Snub Forum Donor

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    What if the Pistons DON'T make the playoffs this season?
    Will the class of 2010 suddenly overlook us as a destination?
    Not making the playoffs with the economy heading down
    suddenly makes the Pistons look undesirable.
     
  10. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Your logic is that if the Nuggs make it to the Finals, then CB's salary is fair?

    Chaunce is getting $11M this year.

    Here are some other guys for comparison:
    Marbury- $22M
    Kidd- $21M
    S. Francis- $20M
    R Lewis- $17M
    Redd- $15M
    Bibby- $15M
    Ben Wallace- $15M
    Wally Z- $13M
    Sheed- $14M
    Rip- $11M

    Excluding rookies, who are bound by rookie contract rules, Chauncey is one of the best values in the leauge this year. He'd have to gain 20 lbs of fat and shoot left handed to be worth less than $11M.
     
  11. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    It's not that Chauncey's contract isn't fair this year... more relating to the remaining years... Sheed is done at the right time... Rip for three years seem about right....
    If CB get's to the ship with Denver this may justify hanging on to an old PG with a hefty contract.
    Just because other teams have worse contracts doesn't make it right for our team... watch Denver over the next three years (excluding this year) we'll see how good that contract is.
     
  12. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    You're on. I'm going to keep my league pass and watch him barely maintain a level of play that will allow me to log on in 3 years and PM you that I was right. :nerner:
     
  13. Latinoking90

    Latinoking90 Bench Warmer

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Point Guards in the NBA never get old.
     
  14. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    You are right. In my paraphrasing I lost the context of your statement. The appropriate response should have been that I'm not ignoring his positive attributes I just don't really see how his strengths stood out versus other candidates. Especially not enough to disregard his lack of coaching experience.

    This was an attempt to narrow the scope of this debate. Its obvious you enjoy debating schematics though so it appears I was unsuccessful. I thought it was fairly obvious that I was saying that if its a matter of winning a championship then I feel that experience should be a prerequisite. This is where terms like "qualifications" come in. I would eliminate Curry immediately based on that criteria.

    Maybe this is where you can lend some insight. Out of the candidates that I mentioned, I see no examples where their Finals experience could be interpreted as a bad thing. Definitely, not so bad that they couldn't have learned from it like all the other coaches that eventually won the big one. I think you're grasping for straws. This argument is just weak.
    Not to mention its not just Finals experience we're talking about as it pertains to Curry, we're talking about NBA coaching experience in general.

    You assume that I don't look at the entire body of work. Why is that? I dunno, probably because it makes your weak argument appear stronger. And we are not talking about a "less experienced" individual, we are talking about a "no experienced" individual. There is a difference. He is an entry level coach. Period.

    I guess you missed my point. When I met high level I was simply talking about the coaching position in terms of where it ranks against other coaching jobs in the same sport. Perhaps I should have said, high profile with high expectations. My bad. Sorry I wasted your time with all that mumble jumble. lol.

    Those coaches were fired because of how their team performed at the beginning of the season. I guess you are saying that they had the previous season to show what they could do as well. But I would counter that by mentioning the Toronto Raptors. Many considered Mitchell to have had a successful year coaching last season. His team was expected to challenge for the title this year, but early results weren't promising. So, he got canned... Joe will definitely ride Curry to the end. I'm just saying that if I was in charge, that would be the first move I would make. I'd correct Joe's mistake.

    Dude, yes you are.
    Even in the quotes you chose you ignored the words "I think". To most, "I think" constitutes an opinion not a fact. I never said I used a scientific method. You introduced science. You also assumed that my opinion was constructed without acknowledging the merit of the other side. Curry is a player's coach...he will enforce accountabilty...respected by his peers...mentors young players...yada...yada...yada... I simply made the call that I didn't think those criteria should have outweighed experience for this position. Especially since some of the same things could be said for the other candidates.

    I see that. Enjoy the fence. There is no merit to the opposing view. Curry shouldn't have been hired if one of the goals of this year was to win a championship. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

    Care to debate on energy alternatives? lol.
     
  15. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    There you go again using absolute words like "definitely".
    How's about the first guy that came up in this thread, Rick Adelman. Coached what was labeled by most as the most talented starting 5 at the time and the best bench in the league in SacTown. His weak will and lack of toughness (my opinion, which I will support in just a sec) was mirrored by his team as they got punked in the playoffs multiple times. Years prior (leading up to my contention) he coached a very talented Blazers squad that also got punked by tougher individuals when all the chips were down.
    I'm not going to go your route and claim anything is absolutely and definitely set in stone, but I think dropping 3 straight at home is getting punked.
    He's had plenty of years in between punking sessions to learn and plenty of chances at the ring and he has likely proven at least in the minds of some (perhaps Joe?) that not only does he not have what it takes to win...he probably has what it takes to lose even when the odds are in his teams favor.
    There you have it. An example. No straw grasping needed.


    Are you getting things confused here?
    I didn't assume anything about you not looking at an entire body of work. That statement of mine was a personal declaration about myself in response to your statement, in which you claimed to "understand" that I don't think too highly of experience. Here's how it actually went.


    See, that wasn't even about you, it was about me. So, what was that now about me attempting to "assume" in order to make a weak argument stronger? Now that the inverse is true as far as making assumptions go, does the rest of that paragraph of yours now apply to you as well?

    Last I checked Assistant Coach counts as Coaching experience. Unless of course you want to shift in your seat some more and amend that statement to mean "Head Coach". Why stop now. Head coach it is...nevermind.






    Whether you "think" or "guess" or "postulate" or "hope" you are still doing it in absolutes. If you tell someone you "think" they should die, you can't just take back the finality of that statement by claiming "I used the word 'think'...we're not talking about anything absolute here.."

    So what is it, would you fire Curry if you were in his position like you have claimed or do you only "think" you'd do it?

    Oh....you'd do it?

    That's absolute.
    Well that makes two of us.
    I'm still sitting around waiting to be taken to "20 games in lessons and how 11-9 precludes you from winning a championship" school.

    It wasn't?

    :rolleyes:

    Come on man. You really can't be attempting to accuse me of assuming something you all but admit to only lines later can you?

    First off, it's another absolute (zero). Secondly, if you have come to the conclusion that there is "no merit" to the opposing view, then you are overlooking and not acknowledging even the remotest of positives. Lastly, I just want to point out the definitive absence of any "I think"s or "I feel"s or even a "IMHO" as a precursor to that statement.

    This is getting to be too rich for my blood. :pound:
     
  16. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Well said sir!!!!!!!!!!
     
  17. CloudWalker

    CloudWalker Bench Warmer

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Strike the third part. You did sum the paragraph up by stating that it was your opinion; however, that opinion is still being expressed as being in support of an absolute theory, i.e. "There is no merit to the opposing view."
     
  18. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Yeah, however I'd still rather sign one of those free agents in a couple years then to stil have chauncey here, and he was my favorite player. I think Joe is a genius we will be good for years to come. Just my small opinion.
     
  19. anakin

    anakin First Round Draft Pick

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    The Pistons chances of making a deep playoff run are limited at best. The starters have aged (mentally and physically) and the fire is not there. They wouldn't have won w/ CB, of course they would probably have a much better record at this point, so Joe must have decided to give it a shot w/ AI and prepare for the future by making the cap situation much better. Added to this, is the fact that Curry is a rookie coach who seems to be overwhelmed. The Pistons have non-existent defense, and play sloppy ball. The window is officially closed, and none of the youngsters have yet shown they are consistent starter material i.e. the talent level is not comparable to players like Horford, Gay, Roy etc. Stuckey though talented is not CB.
     
  20. explosivity

    explosivity First Round Draft Pick

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    Re: Time for the Pistons to rebuild no matter what's the outcome of this season!*

    Stuckey is gonna be a beast, give the man some time. You guys are hard to pleaase
     

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