To All the Stuckey Haters

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by BG*CV*STUCK, Nov 29, 2009.

  1. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    In my eyes it comes down to if he capable of being a good PG...
    I hear what folks are saying about his decision making... and lack of distribution (avg around 5 assist last 10 games or similar to Chauncey).

    Honestly I'd like to give it a year or two of him playing both positions before making this judgment... it's a time for learning systems & teammates strengths.

    That said...damit Rodney pass off the drive sometimes!
  2. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    It's not the # of assists. It's organizing the offense, and getting his teammates where they need to be. It's about knowing when to get someone else off, because you can get yours later.

    He just doesn't have that sense. He can develop it, but he doesn't have any of it right now. Chucky on the other hand, has no wheels, can't really defend and his jump shot is tricky, but he knows how to run a team (generally) and that is really a big asset on this squad.

    Chauncey is one of the top 5 or so PGs in the league. After the top 10, there is a massive drop off, and few teams have two good PGs.

    Stuckey is kinda like Merc's guy Barbosa. He can play PG, but he is not a PG (if that makes sense).
  3. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I can accept this argument (and critisism of Barbosa ... also a talented combo).
    I think some tend to find only the negatives in RS... as if he doesn't look for others... but I'm ok with with the current views of his lack of court vision... stay tuned.... patience grasshopper
  4. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    2 Days in a row!!!!!

    :p_welldone:

    I like Stuckey, I really, really do. I think he can easily avg 20ppg in this league. As long as he is a Piston our success will come on how he gets his 20, if he shoots at or around 50% from the floor and gets to the line, we should win most of the time, when he gets his numbers by being a volume shooter and shoots at or below 40% - we're in trouble. I think he can be an efficient 20ppg scorer............If we take him off the point, especially as the starting PG.

    Stuckey is a 1st half player, his numbers demonstrate that clearly, so the best thing for us is to start him at the 2 and get him going early. Bengo and WB are late game players, they play themselves into a groove....IMO, that strikes a perfect balance.
  5. coynejeremy

    coynejeremy All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    And if that "Disposable Superstar" article from last year was accurate, Chauncey learned it because he was teachable, but also because he had a willing mentor while he was in Minnesota (Terrell Brandon). Chucky NEEDS to be that guy for Stuckey if Stuckey is ever going to "get it."
  6. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    Ummmmmmmm.......CJ?.........Terrell Brandon could actually BALL!!! Chucky?........mmmmmmm.........I don't know about that one.

    It wasn't so much Brandon as it was Flip. Chauncey playing in Flips PG offense played to Billups strengths, then LB came along and made Chauncey a really, really good floor general in addition to everything else, but Chauncey played the point his whole career, Stuckey has always been a scoring guard, a 2-guard.
  7. monrams99

    monrams99 First Round Draft Pick

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    Im just here getting frustrated and about to throw my TV!!!By the way coynejeremy
    Hows the pistons record? im not into individual stats if u make 30 PPG but you cant make your team better it doesnt make sense....its all about winning... peace out!
  8. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Chucky is not going to look for his own. He is a last resort scoring the ball. I think RS is an intelligent ball player and with the coaching of Q; will become a very good point guard in this league and on this team. He is still learning the position and has all the skills needed to be productive.

    In the long run we will be a better team with Stuck at the point and either Rip or ben at the 2. It may not seem that way right now because guys on the team are still learning how to score the ball. Let our injured players get healthy and our rookies get experience and I think we will be very dangerous come the end of the season.
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    My point about the rarity of good PGs speaks somewhat to the skill level involved, because there is certainly not a shortage of SGs or guys under 6'6".

    Veterans like Chucky, have learned how to do the simple things well. Stuckey might get that, he might not. But outside of Nash, Deron Williams, CP3, Billups, maybe Rondo, Calderon, Parker, Kidd, Bibby etc there aren't that many guys who can run an offense night in, and night out.

    Raymond Felton? Gilbert Arenas? Brandon Jennings? Louis Williams? Mario Chalmers? AI? Monta Ellis/Stephon Curry?

    There are plenty of guys who play PG who no one would call a floor general.

    So on the one hand, we expect Stuckey to join a very rare group of elite players, doing things he is not particularly good at right now, and on the other hand, we have to respect my previous Barbosa example, that some guys who play PG, are not PGs. So it really depends on what we're expecting or talking about when we want Stuckey to play at the 1.

    I think Stuckey can be a top 10 SG with a decent PG. I'm not so sure he can be a top 10 PG.
  10. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    And I guess that is where the descrepency lies. Would you expect the stat line for Stuck to be the same whether he was playing the point or the 2??

    Kgreg keeps demanding that Stuck be moved to the 2 and limit his role as the pg. His argument is that Stuck plays better from the 2. I think Kgreg believes this is Stucks natural position?

    Stuck can score more points from the 2 and is in attack mode from there. His points would obviously be more from this position since our offense is geared towards that position and not the pg position.

    The question for me is would we be happier with his point guard play if he scored less points but got more of the team involved or is there something else we are expecting of him??

    When you look at the list of point guards that you provided; none of those guys stand out to me as being the leading point getters for their team. They all feed the other players and get their points opportunistically.

    With our current M.A.S.H. unit and roookies; Stuck does not have that option. He has to lead this team in scoring for us to have a chance to win right now. When we are at full strength; that will be different. Right now Stuck is trying to lead the team in scoring from the PG position which is not typically where the leading scorer plays.

    Let's see what happens as the season progresses. I have a gut feeling that things will get alot better for Stuck and the team as our team gets healthy and more experience.
  11. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    DD, I think we're just talking past one another here.

    You know the difference between Gilbert Arenas and Chauncey Billups?

    That is the difference between Stuckey and what people expect at the 1.

    It's not about points or assists. It's not about shooting percentage or ability to hit 3s.

    One player is able to organize the team to execute plays, exploit mismatches, and to rein in his own desire to score in order to get other teammates going.

    The other player looks first for his shot, gets assists from stationary jumpshooters, and almost never gives up the ball near the hoop.

    It's the mental game. It is the difference between Nash and Barbosa.
  12. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    RS has to get to the point where decisions come naturally... advanced scouts have their players slanting toward him when he has the ball... this is gonna require the adjustment of making teams pay with the pass... once they're back to being honest (no double/triple teams) that's when RS can look for his.
    It's not just about one style... sometimes you have to be "the man" if that's what the defense dictates... could be early in the game or late... being unpredictable keeps the defense from loading up.

    Nobody should suggest that Stuckey be a pass first PG when he has a clear advantage as a number one scoring option (say Arroyo is defending him).

    This is why I'm preaching patience... he's getting brain cramps right now with the coach saying "be agressive" or "look for your teamates in their spots"... hell nobody has a handle on this offense yet or where players sweet spots are.... let's start with the simple P&R and take it from there.

    What exactly is the new player turnover % of this squad from last year?

    All I'm looking for is some progress in a transition year.
  13. hitafreethrow

    hitafreethrow Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Merc I like the idea of P&R. How come we dont run more pick n pop with Charlie V?
  14. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    I think we are on the same page here. My concern with moving him predominantly to the 2 is what happened yesterday. He was easily bottled up and started forcing shots. I just believe that things will be different when we are healthy and the rooks get more comfortable. We can already see that JJ is becoming more assertive and Daye is looking for his shot more. When Rodney gets more comfortable and familiar with these guys as options, he will look better running the team then he does now.

    I like Stuck's game but I just don't see him as the #1 option on this team. I look at him as the perfect #2 option. I still like Rip as option number one off the screens but I don't want to see Stuck waiting around for multiple attempts by Rip to get open. This is where the problem lies. IF Rip is not open on the first attempt then the offense has to allow for something else. Whether that be a reversal of the ball and a cut through by Stuck or a drive to the hoop for a dish or a finish.

    When healthy; I can see a pass to Tay if Rip is covered and Stuck cutting down the lane while Rip replaces him at the top. From there it is basicially like Rip being at the point and Stuck at the 2.
  15. max

    max All-Star

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    As opposed to the Pick and Brick that they sometimes run with Maxiel.
  16. hitafreethrow

    hitafreethrow Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Precisely! Although some have noted that Max's Vinny Johnson impersonation is coming along nicely. Had a few game stretch there where he was hitting regularly from the high post region.
  17. KGREG

    KGREG All-Star

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    It's even worse when he does it at the Point.

    While I respect your logic, I disagree. His handles don't even say Point Guard. His handles are suspect, in no way does he keep that rock on string in a way that makes me feel comfortable with him as the franchise PG.

    Stuck playing the 2, doesn't equate to him being the #1 option. Personally I think that all that option stuff is a bunch of bull. I subscribe to the Hubie Brown philosophy, Get your 3 best players high percentage shots in their comfort zones, by sharing the ball.

    OK, lemme school DD. Let's think football for a minute. You know how there are some routes and plays that take a long time to develop, and the O-Line has to block for an eternity waiting for the reciever to come open, 2Chest is the equivalent of that in basketball. That play takes so long to develop, it requires 2 players to stand and do nothing - on the strong side, leaving us unbalanced. It eats a ton of clock, and we don't have time to run a second option when 2Chest doesn't work, which results in us forcing some BS play late in the shot clock. We are a much better team when force the defense to move, reverse the ball and Rip ends up with wide open shots because the ball got reversed to weakside, THAT is when we are playing our absolute best ball. All of that can happen, and happen quickly playing P&R ball and drive and kick ball.
  18. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    I agree with you on these two points.

    I too am of the opinion that when you have your 3 best options on the floor it doesn't matter which option is #1 or #3. Unfortunately or offense (at least right now) is dominated by the SG. The case I have been making all along about Stuckey is that he could be one of those 3 options. It doesn't matter to me if you say he is playing the 1 or the 2 position. We have players that are interchangeable which I think makes us more dangerous. I think he needs to be on the floor with Rip and Tay (when ready) and JJ and Ben. If we go small and want to run BenGo with this group instead of JJ then someone has to be playing PG (even if it is just in name only). As I said before; I think we have 4 "capable" guys that can initiate the offense once they are used to playing together.

    I also agree about the 2-Chest play. The problem I see with it though is that Stuck or whomever is playing the point will wait as long as it takes for Rip to get open. We need to be able to run something else out of this set if he is not open on the initial move. Not be tied down waiting for multiple moves.

    I would love to see some pick and roll or pick and pop with JJ or with CV. I am not a big fan of the toss into BEN at the elbow and players breaking off of him. I am just trying to be patient and see how this team will gel as the players start soming back and get more familiar with each other.

    This is all new to us as fans since we have always had the "core" here and they new each other so well. Right now we not only have guys learning the NBA game, they are also learning their teammates. I am going to stick with a motto of "Patience" and see how this thing works out as we get closer to the trade deadline.
  19. pass99

    pass99 All-Star Forum Donor

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    This is who I would get:
    • Rip, Stuckey, JMax
    • Biedrins, Ellis, Randolph
    As a composite, both teams needs a major overhaul. There are some little tid-bits that work for both teams. I'll throw some out:
    • (GS) Nelson would go for this combination. A smaller ball club with a new energy and mature players. Rip and JMax are a great fit.
    • (GS) Randolph is gone and he can only be moved in some multi-player combination.
    • (GS) Morrow is now given a chance for some growth and Stuckey will switch between PG and SG to help him mature.
    • (GS) Curry, Morrow and Stuckey is a solid back court (mix-match for 1-2).
    • (GS) Biedrins will never fit in Nelson's running style game. At age 23 he is growing old fast and he needs to have room to use his toughness, which is what the Pistons need.
    • (GS) Ellis will never grow next to Curry. Just plain oil and water.
    ________________________________________
    • Ellis is all quickness and has the IQ to run as a PG. Can breakdown any defense and the ability to setup the wings. A bit like Nash: will have the ability to run through and around all setups. As the opportunity arises, he will an easily distributed 20 pts with 10 assist (and throw in 5 plus rebounds) while playing the point. Needs the right coach and the right system.
    • Biedrins is a tough 5 and this is a natural comfort zone. This is as good as it gets within the current talent zone for young centers. Will help all the other 3-4 around him. Ben and Kwame could be soon gone....then what? Keep Wilcox.
    • Randolph is the big wild-card. Can a coach be found to handle the following 3-4 player positions: JJ, Daye, CV and Randolph. Nice youthful nightmare to work through.
    • BG, welcome to the 2 position.
    • An associated trilogy to match GS: BG, Ellis, Bynum. (mix-match for 1-2).
    • Remember, you still can have extra flex with Tay's contract.
    • Per contracts: an even out for both clubs (Biedrins and Ellis are longer which is OK). Piston's pay more, but a good chance that Stuckey moves on. Sorry, you need to think about this.
  20. monrams99

    monrams99 First Round Draft Pick

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    wow sounds good...where you at coyjeremy?

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