Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by Dlev59, Dec 23, 2006.
Does this mean that other reserves with positive ratings shouldn't count?
Why be facetious. If you have a specific question about a specific player, ask. Then I will be glad to go look and see if any of the data is sufficient to get anything from it.
The point still stands. Untill 4 games ago (when Max, Blalock, and Dale seemed to transform the bench):
Our Starters >>>> Everyone else's starters
Our Bench <<<< Everyone else's bench
Delfino was playing most of his minutes on a unit that worse worse than the other team's second unit. You could plug in the worst center in the league with our starters and his +/- numbers will look decent. Just like you could plug in a solid 6th man into the role Delfino played (with the Hunter, Murray, struggling Dice bench), and it's going to look bad.
The only reserves with positive ratings are reserves that just started playing recently. Anyone who saw a large chunk of their minutes with Lindsey running the show is in the red at this point. There is a reason why Chauncey leads the team by a wide margin in positive +/- and why Lindsey leads the rotation players by a wide margin in negative +/-. The dribble/chuck-fest just doesn't work. Lindsey's style worked back in the days without the touchfouls because the defense keyed the offense. Now he just can't impact the game consistantly on the defensive end. This is why I'm dreading the day Lindsey comes back. Flip is bound to go back to the "veteran", but Blalock's "Get the ball moving" style has been a big reason why the bench isn't falling on it's face still.
Not trying to turn into a bash-lindsey post, because i appreciate everything he has done, but he needs to be in the front office, not on the court.
``If Flip could coach his way to an EC Championship with this team, Coach of the Year would be in order. A Championship would get him write in votes for President.''
I doubt it. Any success in the playoffs is more likely to come from out playoff-tested veterans having regained their hunger. Many people chose to deny how much our 04 success was due to LB, others will do the same if Flip ever rides this group to a ring.
Good observation. Hunter was extremely minus, pretty much totally squashing our offense. Of course, it must be said, that Flip Murray was always along side him, compounding the problem. And to anyone who wants to claim that Delfino was part of the problem too, forget it. Delfino's numbers have been doing nothing but trending upwards of late.
So have Murray's though. And while I'm not a big fan of his game, based on the last few games I think he can still play his limited role (Saunders appears to be learning that Delfinos consistant hustle/defense game > Murray's rare offensive bursts). The key to the bench struggles has always been the ball-hogging PGs we've had on the floor (Lindsey, Arroyo) bringing down their teammates with them. Blalock knows if he dribbles like crazy and shoots every 2 seconds he'll land himself a spot on the IR and that will be that, so he simply initiates the offense, and plays his role. Lindsey's a "protected" player, so it doesn't matter how many bricks he throws up or shotclocks he dribbles down. He'll still play the next day.
Sorry, but we had no struggles with Arroyo as our backup point. Remember the 70 win thing? Yeah, that was with Arroyo running the backup point spot. Arroyo and Billups were competing much of the year for top honors in the combination of assists per minute with highest assist to turn ratio. Well, anyway, thats getting off subject, spilt milk whatever.
You think Flip Murray can play a limited role. Its possible, but I believe we have much better use for Murray's minutes. Amir Johnson can play small forward while Delfino plays shooting guard.
Flip Murray does have one talent, his ability to drive to the basket. The only trouble is he does not choose to use it enough, instead deciding to pull up for heavily contested, low percentage jumpers. Could we use Flip Murray if he quit making bad decisions? Maybe. As soon as I see Murray quit taking those type of shots I will mention it. Meanwhile, there is defense too. Not much there from him.
There are always choices to make as far as who gets to play. Some feel Dupree should get a shot at playing time. Not me. Some thought Mo Evans should have stayed with us. Not me, and apparently not Joe Dumars. In my opinion, the best choices to make right now, to maximize how good this team can be for the playoffs, these players should be playing: Billups, Blalock, Rip, Delfino, Tay, Amir, Sheed, Maxiell, Davis, Dyess. I would have nothing against Murray getting some time if there were not better players ahead of him that could use the time to sharpen their skills to help us in the playoffs. I am kind of cold hearted that way. I want the Pistons to win, and this overides the personal feelings of the players involved. After all, they make millions. Feelings hurt or not, they are still rich. They will get over it.
I agree in many ways, but I am willing to take the trade-off with Flip Saunders. If he plays Max, Blalock (not hunter), and Delfino I will live with Flip in his limited role. You can tell that Flip Sr isn't too high on "lil" Flip anymore, so he doesn't have unlimited rope like Evans did. I can live with that. If he starts throwing up bricks, he's not helping us in other areas, so pull him. If he's hitting shots he can be an asset. That seems to be how Flip Sr. is doing things nowadays and I don't mind that. Besides, I think Amir is a year or two away. We don't really need him to showing some flashes and uppping his value a ton before we can resign him. Money-bags Davidson is going to have shallow pockets this year with Chauncey's massive deal coming up.
The perfect scenario is that Delfino gets a clue on offense (ATTACK THE BASKET!!!), and eats up all of the SG/SF minutes. He can defend those spots well, but we need someone else on the floor to take some pressure off of Max, Dice, etc. Murray certainly draws more attention than Delfino at this point since he's aggressive offensively. So it's really up to Delfino to assert himself (does Tayshaun need to get hurt as well?). That's when the second unit will take it to the next level.
First, I appreciate the chance to debate this. Thanks for your posts.
Back in Carlisle's 2nd year, I kind of said about the same thing. We had two guys on the roster, Tay and Memo, who I thought should be getting playing time. I said at the beginning of the season that as long as one of those two got 10 minutes a game, I would not call for Carlisle to be fired. At first, neither was getting playing time, but then Zelly came down with that heart condition so Memo started playing, and soon exceeded 10 minutes a game. (I think he played 20 minutes a game that year.)
Considering Carlisle had some things going for him, like getting his guys to D up physically, ability to break down game film and make adjustments between games, and put units on the floor that worked together (talking about the Alternatorz, the best bench unit in the league in Carlisle's first season, and not too shabby in the 2nd season although the loss of Damon Jones-and then Zelly becoming ill, hurt), this seemed reasonable. Halfway decent coach, some youth development. Why not leave well enough alone.
I still continually harped on the fact Tay was not playing, but I was not calling for Carlisle to be fired. But in retrospect, I wish we would have had a coaching change early that season. Tay was just plain too good to be sitting on the bench. We managed to get past the Orlando series and TMAC by starting to play Tay, but when we got to the NJ series, due to Carlisle's playbook which called for some pretty complicated plays that took a season's worth of practice to get right, Tay could not be written into the offense for us. So we lost a series we could have won if Tay had been playing regularly that year. And you know what, the West was weak that year. We get past NJ, we very well win it all. (The Lakers added Payton and Malone the next year to shore up their team.)
So here is where we are heading now: Amir Johnson, a very good, very poised, very ready basketball player is sitting on the bench. Mohammed and Flip Murray are playing. We will end up playing Miami in the playoffs. Our starting unit will be destroyed by Miami, because Mohammed can't gaurd Shaq and will need serious help. Meanwhile, Wade will go to the basket every time and score at will with no center for us in the game who can get over and block a shot.
This won't last long. Mohammed will get pulled, and no, he won't be able to play with the reserves either. Mourning will be too much for Mohammed to handle also and Wade can play, and will play, an absolute ton. We will be scrambling all the sudden to repair a rotation that does not work.
Worse, our bench will not be able to make up any ground, since Flip Murray is a part of that. Bad starting unit. Not so good sub unit. We go out in 5 or 6 again.
On the other hand, we could do things right, and play our best players. We still would have a lot of troube beating Miami, but I believe its possible. Dale Davis can't gaurd Shaq either, yet if he starts against Shaq, and we double team a lot, we have enough team speed in their to still get over and block Wade from getting to the hoop when he tries to take advantage.
And when our bench comes in, featuring a good ball handling backcourt of Blalock and Delfino, with solid post up players like Amir and Jason Maxiell, we can make up ground. Just maybe win the series.
One would be crazy not to give credit to LB and the players for the `04 Ship.
Just as one would give credit to Flip and the players for a `07 Ship..
They showed some shots of Shelly during the 5th game of the 2004 Piston-Fakers series.
She sure was nice looking.
Is that something you call someone who asks a legit question... certainly not in the Christmas spirit.
We'll see, Dlev. I'm not convinced Flip can press the right buttons in the playoffs, but the competition in the East is so weak that our players might be able to overcome that. Our players can be as tough and tenacious as any other group in the league, and they've got as much Finals experience as anyone. In an era of low standards such as this one, that might be enough to overcome a crappy coach. Or, who knows -- maybe Flip can help the cause. Both scenarios are possible...
If DD and J-Max would have played last year in the form they are playing now it could have made a huge difference, we may not have won as many games in the regular season but we may have won a ship.
Those two are the major reason for such optimisim this year IMO.
Neither of them are gonna play a huge role in the playoffs anyways. Rotations shorten in the playoffs. Davis isn't a part of the rotation now, and Max has been for just a week, in which our starting PF was out. It's foolish to think that players who can't crack the rotation in December -- right or wrong -- are gonna be in it in May.
Hack, what about Will B Free? Do you think he will be able to keep some minutes heading into March?
As I mentioned earlier, playing now will benefit the team in the playoffs. Giving our players rest would be helpful.
I can understand your pessimism, however, let`s try and keep this thread positive, as was the intent.
This is a new year and if you are not encouraged by what is going on at the present time with the Pistons then may I suggest you start a negative thread, or post in the "Not Very Encouraging" thread from a few weeks back.
No idea, since I don't get to see games much. What do you think? How's he looked? Commentary thus far is extremely encouraging. If the kid really can come in and keep the offense running and can drive/dish, then I'm really excited. We haven't had a PG do that in so, so long, and it's such a weapon. Everybody seems to comment on how in control he is and what a good passer he is...
I really do not know whats going to happen in the playoffs. At this rate Flip likes the 2 headed center deal of Mohammed/Davis so I know that will stay. Not sure if Blaylock and Maxiel will play much. We will see. Plenty of season still left to play.
Only thing, I keep hearing on how this season is the true Flip coaching style since last season was all about him not wanting to tamper too much with a winning formula.
Did he shorted the bench in Minnesota?
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