We Have Failed Miserably at Developing Young Talent/It Will Come Back to Bite Us

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by armygirl, Nov 10, 2006.

  1. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Why can every Major Basketball Franchise develop their young talent and the Pistons just choose year after year to stand pat?

    The last time we took one of our younguns and gave him major minutes was Tayshaun Prince, and this was only by accident by the way.

    What is the difference between a raw Tayshaun Prince besides playing in KY for 4 years and AJ and JMax. I know Amir Didn't attend college, however, neither did Andrew Bynum who by the way is playing like a beast for the Lakers.

    These youngsters that inhabit some of the teams that are in our division is gonna take us to school on a nightly basis. Our butts will be handed to us on a silver platter every night.

    It's early in the season, however, I am beginning to see a dangerous situation arising, which is, the emotion is not there, no passion, the desire is almost non-existant, as Chauncey quoted to the Detroit News, "we are not a good team right now" I almost would like to pull a Miami, find a couple of guys who want a championship really, really bad, then make a trade.

    I am going to retract my statement about the Pistons being at the top of the pile, I think we will absolutely stink for a while. I so hope that I am wrong.

    I realize that we are only four games into the season, but look at the rebounding guys, it is absolutely atrocious.

    All of us here on this forum have somehow bought into this philosophy of thinking that all is well with the players from last year.

    Dyess is not getting it done, Sheed going scoreless, assists are down, every other major category the stats are down from last year. I can see maybe one or two, but EVERY major category.

    We need to put the young guys on the floor. Take a step back if necessary. Joe D needs to get to evaluating and stop BSing around.

    Something just doesn't smell right and I have already looked on the bottom of my shoe, therefore, I didn't step in any mess. The smell must be coming from somewhere else.
     
  2. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    I think it comes from Joe D, the way he believes in earning it and paying your dues, and the coaches he's hired that have the same belief.

    To Joe, he's not going to play a young guy unless he has to. He seems to have this thought process (along with all of his coaches) that you must pay your dues before you get on the court. (BTW, Joe thinks you earn your PT off the court in GT, how you do that is beyond me, while I think most other teams have you prove yourself on the court in real game time, in limited minutes, allowing you a chance to prove you deserve more minutes.)

    I think most teams would play a young guy with slightly less talent over a vet due to his upside potential. Detroit is the opposite, we'll play a less talented vet over a young guy.

    Some of the bigger mistakes: Darvin and Dice over Okur and Darko, Curry over Tay, Evans over Delfino, LH over Blaylock, and now Dice over Jmax and Amir.

    Sad thing is I really like Dice, but he's done put a fork in him. Him and CWebb, all star power forwards who've lost all of their power and are now mediocre jump shooting tall guys that can't rebound or play D, and are only getting worse.
     
  3. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    Just because we like JMax doesn't mean we have to hate on Dice.

    He gave us 6 points, 12 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal, and 1 block tonight with 50% shooting in 29 minutes!
     
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    TaShawn, I agree with you completely. In fact, I'm down on Dice because I want Tazr to play. Dice doesn't play big enough, and his athleticism is slipping away.
     
  5. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Dice will pull one out every now and then, however, his skills are deteriorating, his concentration is very suspect, horrible decision making.

    I say trade him while he is somewhat marketable.
     
  6. armygirl

    armygirl Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    I agree with you play Tazr, I like his skills set, rebounding and basketball IQ a lot better than McDyess at this point.
     
  7. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Bold words but I agree. Those great plays are few and far between. I REALLY think our system is detrimental to every player not named Rip Hamilton. We need movement. Dribble penetration. When people the the ball on the low block what about sending cutters in the lane and have the perimeter guys float around so that passing lanes open up. I think if we stopped standing about the perimeter jacking up 3's players...Dyess included would be more productive.
     
  8. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    That's what I'm hoping happens. If the ball is moved a lot there is no way the other team can gaurd the Pitons. There is just too many threats.
     
  9. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    That was LB's offense. Keep passing the ball for "better" (read: closer) shots. A misconception is that his offense lacked creativity and was antiquated. Not so.

    LB's offense maximized the shot clock. It's been the way to win since the late 80s. Ball control and maximizing time of possession.

    The Pistons had (have) a cast of players, none of which is a bonafide 25 PPG scorer. They had defenders, rebounders and hustle players. Expecting them to turn into the '82 Nuggets is crazy. Not when arguaby their best starter was a DEFENSIVE player of the year.

    Rip is the only high energy player on the starters. And that is why the system is tailored to him. Our PG is not a big dribble penetrator, and really doesn't have a crossover or breakdown game. Tay seems to only get active on offense if he is put in an ISO situation, and Sheed is not very good putting the ball on the floor.

    The flex should feature plenty of single/double screens and passes. You keep bending the defense until it makes a mistake. I saw so much stagnation last night. We're incredibly lucky that Sheed and Tay can play well in isolation and occassionally through double teams.
     
  10. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    With Nazr being able to score now a all out ball movement offense would own teams. The only player who should get isos is Sheed. If they come to double you pass it back outside to the open player. They either make an open shot, or if the defense collapses you make the extra pass.

    If this team starts making the extra pass it will make it so much easier. I'm happy that Tay and Sheed are posting up and CB and Rip are driving, but once they make their move the ball should be moved for an even easier shot.
     
  11. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Sorry, but the fault belongs to the "Win Then" club. In the past couple of years, the "Win Now" club was advocating playing the starting 6 as much as they could stand and two things happened:

    First, the starting six were run into the ground and were neither physically sharp or mentally sharp by the playoff times;

    Second, the rest of the team was left behind and we are paying for that now.

    When you play the bench without going into these mind games and company lines, you may not win a team franchise number of games but overall the team develops together without the lean years thrown in. Sure we got deep into the playoffs four consecutive years, but only one set of rings.

    But it is not too late for this year. Starting out even is not the worst thing in the world. Only six or seven games into the season is plenty of time to begin the process.

    And as we pretty much all like Dyce, he does not have to go. He just needs to play fewer minutes so that JMax and company can play more. Dyce can still get his ring and that should be worth his playing a little less over the year. Might even extend his career.
     
  12. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    Who is this club? Carlisle, Larry Brown, & Flip Saunders? Or is it Joe Dumars who KEEPS bringing bargain basement FA's as stopgaps.

    ONLY?? Lets talk Utah Jazz. Portland Trailblazers. Philly, New York, Minny. Its no small accomplishment. A lot of teams would be envious. The team has flirted with disaster ever since hiring LB as coach. Its a definite risk/reward move that had its +'s and -'s.
     
  13. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    Yeah, but we were arguably the best team in the league for 2 years and came away with no rings.
     
  14. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    What's up with that? Why is it everytime a guy gets waived, Joe thinks he's better than what we already have, and signs a guy that just got WAIVED to come in and get immediate PT over guys that have been working their butts.

    Darvin, Mo, Delk, Lindsey, Elden, Davis, and now Flip. Guys no one wants, yet we sign em and play em over rooks who should be our future.
     
  15. HelloIDistance

    HelloIDistance First Round Draft Pick

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    I agree with the Pistons never developing their young talent. I guarantee you that if we traded Delfino, Max or AJ they would get about 20-25 minutes a game on any other team. Maybe not AJ since he is younger, but he would at least get 5-10 minutes. I don't know why the Pistons play all the older guys over these younger ones. We need energy and drives to the basket. These guys can give you that!
     
  16. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Maybe we need to define "young talent"
    Does Flip Jr. fit in this class?
    It looks like Delfino is receiving the PT close to what was being asked by sevral posters (currently 15.7 MPG).
    Jmax is getting PT
    Amir was iffy this year (possible D-League)
    What's left?... more PT than the Vets?

    I'm ok with Brahma getting more than Dice based on what we've seen so far.... let's see how this plays out.
     
  17. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    i think its more than minutes but roles. Sure delfino gets 15 but he just floats around while flip dribbles and dribbles and shoots. FLip can and will do a lot of good things for us but if we don't win it all (which looks more and more likely each game) then what was it for? We locked up delfino for a number of years and Flip is here for 1.

    I think we should try going Maxiell over Dyess. I would hope you can look at a situation and say this is a job for the brahma or this is Dyess but I think that's asking too much.

    Also our offensive system sucks! We rely way too much on Rip. If rip was lebron and we were the cavs I could see that but this team loses rip and turns into an iso team.
     
  18. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    Wassup Armygirl? Excellent topic, btw. Maybe you should define what you mean by "young" talent. Every major b-ball franchise ain't been to the semis, much less the finals the last three years. Those that have ain't played any more "young" players than we have.

    How many of SA's draft choices got significant PT in their first two years? As for their Euros, let's give SA some credit. They had better scouts in Europe than we did. Miami, anyone? What about the Shaq/Kobe Lakers? Somebody enlighten me.

    We are paying the price for selecting busts with two of our early picks. :frusty: Bynum is a beast indeed. Bet Zeke wished he would have selected him like I told him to. :)

    Looks to me like this IS what we are doing. Playing our young-uns while keeping the core intact. Meanwhile taking a step back. I might be wrong, but I CHOOSE to believe that (barring injuries) we are working on developing our young talent and looking to "peak" at the right time. I don't like what I'm seein with our guys so far, but it's WAY too early to push the panic button.
     
  19. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    devin harris, dwayne wade, udonis haslem, josh howard, marquis daniels and there are more if you count the guys that got minutes during the regular season but not the playoff run.

    devin brown got minutes as a young spur. the euros were good draft picks but san antonio develops them. parker, ginobli, oberto, udrih were not ripping the league up when they came to the states. pop let them play and develop just like any other young player. we didn't do that with our young euros/non american players. now they are producting for other teams.

    devean george, medvedenko, kareem rush, luke walton all played as young players for the lakers.

    the lakers did things right in bringing in kareem to work with bynum. instead of us putting special attention on development of our young players we are more interested in making them "earn" it. for the record bynum had some luck getting into the lineup with injuries.

    we are more paying the price for not developing our early picks and trading them for squat or letting them leave in free agency.

    yes. we are doing that a year too late in my opinion.
     
  20. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    None of those guys played for teams that went to the finals two or more times. if I'm not mistaken, Haslem played "extended minutes" in his second year....AFTER the Heat acquired Shaq. No need to mention Wade, cause if we had drafted him instead of wasting the pick, he would have "got minutes" with us as well.

    How many minutes did Devin Brown get in his rookie year...pray tell? What about Oberto? You sound like all rooks are equal....that is ALL a coach has to do is play them and they will automatically "develop" according to some time schedule or something. Rooks ain't created with a cookie cutter. Some ARE actually better than others.


    You're kidding right? I don't recall Medevenko, Rush or Walton getting significant time while the Lakers were chasing a championship with Shaq/Kobe. D. George was basically a 3pt specialist who hit his shots while opponents were worried about doubling Shaq/Kobe.

    Bynum was not selected by a championship contender. Besides, by all accounts; Bynum HAS "earned" it. All high school age rooks don't have "bloodflow" problems.

    How do you define "young players" anyway?
     

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