What is different this year? Why 6-0?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by lapiston, Nov 13, 2005.

  1. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    I think the main difference is the offense. The bench is a bit better but still not settled. The team is playing with more motivation due to last year's loss. But I would say we would be no better than 4-2 with last year's offense. It is not just shooting the three--we take jumpers in rythym. We now use players to their strengths. Take Sheed. he is scoring inside AND outside. Tay shoots the ball instead of that pump fake that fooled no one last year. Tay posts down low but not all the time. Chauncey goes off when he wants to go off--could be early as well as late. Rip pulls up and shoots. Remember some of those Indy finals games where he tried to take it in all the time and miss under pressure or when he tried to become a passer and throw it away? We rarely post Ben unless there is a mismatch. This does not guarantee a championship, but the new offense is very encouraging. Playing the Pistons has become all that much tougher now that teams know they can also score.
  2. brandonhgt

    brandonhgt Second Round Draft Pick

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    Great post, I agree that the multi-dimensional offense is the main difference this year. It seems like Joe D. has an awesome feel for the pulse of the organization and has an uncanny knack for getting the right group of players/coach together. We are being spoiled this season that is for sure!
  3. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Difference from last year

    Last year, we started off by turning the ball over constantly. It was not until after Carlos Arroyo joined the team that we got our turns under control. This season, we started off with both CB and Arroyo having really good assist to turn ratios. And between CB and Arroyo, we have had a competent point guard for running the show on the floor at all times.

    Last year we started the season with a coach not healthy. This year, we got a fully healthy one fully dedicating every moment to coaching us to wins.

    Last year Ben Wallace had just come off surgery. This year Ben Wallace, after a rather a light number of minutes in preseason, is full of energy and just being a monster on the boards from the gitgo.

    While unnoticed, Rip has learned to go inside. And last year, going inside all year, he got even better. Rip is still going inside this year, and more effectively than ever. Call this year over year improvement by Rip.

    CB had one more year of decision making experience last year. Its not just a new offense. You again have some year over year improvement. I am sure Flip has something to do with CB's much improved assist to turn ratio, but a lot of it is just CB being better.

    Back to Arroyo. The guy is doing more than just running the offense. He is making shots too.

    Last year, we did not have Mo Evans, who has given our bench some lift on offense by his shooting. (Although this is somewhat mitigated by poor ball handling.) Of course, we did have Delfino, but he might have already started having knee problems by about this time. In any case, Evans has given us solid minutes so far.

    And to continue that thought, last year our starters played a lot in the preseason. This year, they came out of the preseason well rested with the bench having played a ton.

    Dyess, while not starting last season in a shooting slump, did not rebound like he is doing now. So I will call that a wash.

    Tay scored 18 per game for the 2nd half of last season, a dramatic improvement over the first half of the season. This year, he has started right where he left off last year, being a big part of the offense.

    Sheed has went inside more. But if you notice, his three point shooting is looking awful sweet too. Although his numbers are down a bit, I'd say the quality of his offense is up.

    Altogether, you got 4 guys who are now all capable of taking over a game offensively. And Ben Wallace with yet another year of improvement on his offense. So thats year over year improvement in our offense regardless of system used.

    Now, about that system. Its working. A couple of big differences are plays designed to use one of our strengths, the outside shot. More screens and picks to free up the shots. The other is the freedom to just pull up and shoot if the other team fails to guard you. No more rule that you have to use the clock to find the best shot.

    We have also seen some very effective fast breaking going on. But note, in the Phoenix game, we limited that. Smart since Phoenix just loves that kind of game so why give it to them. Now, the last coach preached fast breaks too, but maybe having a coach fully there to work with the team on the fast breaks is making a difference. In any case, I bet us fans get lots of ops to be thrilled yet by the fast paced Pistons fast breaks.
  4. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    More reasons

    1) Easy schedule
    2) Chip on shoulder
    3) They like their coach
  5. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    More on offense

    Pretty extensive post Lee. I will go over a few points only. Sheed is scoring inside and outside--a big plus. Tay's game has gone up a notch offensively but I think one of the reasons is that he now shoots the ball in the flow of the offense and is allowed to do so. Yes, the team is rested which gives me great pause about why we lost last year. Rip and Chauncey have matured, yes. I know it was not a playoff game, but notice the play called for Rip at Boston. It was a sweet Rip jumper. I think that apart from individual improvement, the last part of your post is noteworthy where you talk about a different emphasis and system. While I am not sold about the roles of bench players yet, I do agree that at least they are going to be used to spell the starters. Of course, all this does not mean we are automatically going to the championship, but I have to agree that more and more, this team is reminding me of the Bad Boys. And I don't say that lightly. They look special out there, don't they? One more thing, there may also be something to Micro's post on the other board--we may have had to go through Larry to get to Flip. Flip may work because we already had Larry.
  6. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    we have beeen on the road more than home, but yeah phoenix was the only good team we faced.
  7. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Larry's influence

    Although not stated directly, my post does give credit to many Larry initiatives. Getting Ben involved in the offense. Rip going inside. CB making better decisions. Etc.
  8. kpaav

    kpaav Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    LaPiston

    Good point about Tay. Last year, he seemed to never shot the J in transition or in the flow. He would get the ball pump fake and try to drive or post up with that little drive to his left. I could never figure out why he didn't shoot more because at KY he was the goto shooter on the team. I know people have mentioned this already, but I have seen the same tayshaun (through facial expression etc) that I saw in that video where he drained 6 straight threes against UNC. Having this Tay is scary (in a good way) and the rest of the the league should be trembling.

    Also, on a side note--dont you like how tay has responded to his new contract. With all the Dunleavey/Prince comparisons that the media has brought up due to the same position/draft I have been looking at how both have responded. Dunleavey has responded with 6 ppg. Clearly, if 45 million is market value for that, Dumars pulled the steal of the century getting Tay for 48 million!!!
  9. TaS

    TaS All-Star Forum Donor

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    6 and 0

    The next 6 will be a much better test for us.
  10. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    We are already up two

    Because of the fast break points, shooting and hitting open jumpers, taking the three and using players to their strengths, I think we are 6-0 and not 4-2. I think we would have lost at Boston and Phoenix with last year's offense. This does not guarantee a championship or that we won't hit snags in the road. We will see-- but my feeling is that even if we play a tough defensive team that will hold us down some, our style of play will create more points than last year. The question will be can the defense still be about as strong. If so, the league is in trouble.
  11. Tally

    Tally First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe is a master of personalities. He did know that Rick had taken us as far as he could. He knew two years of Larry were enough - regardless of all the press/espn talking about Larry working his way out of a job. And he knew that Flip was the right coach at this time.

    So much of this depended on Joe keeping the core group together, and there again Joe has been masterful. He probably ends up keeping the same starting lineup together for at least five or six years which will not be repeated in this league for a very long time. Not only is that a testiment to Joe, but also to Piston fans who have patiently supported this team as Joe built another Piston dynasty piece by piece.
  12. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Tally on joe

    I totally agree. Joe is who built the Pistons, period. It is an incredible job that is still unfolding. Larry was a man for the moment, but I do wonder if he were here this year, that there might not have been a lot of tension. As Lee said, Rip, Chauncey and others have matured. They would want more freedom. Of course, I will take Larry and a championship. But the future under Flip really looks good. And Joe, he is the man.
  13. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Excellent post Lee, you hit many of the issues on the money.

    As Rip said we suffered from Championship hangover... I don't think the team was dedicated to conditioning during the summer (Ben & Darko couldn't)... this year they had a new hunger to reestablish their dominance... to a man, they all recognize how important early season games are for home court.
  14. max

    max All-Star

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    Early season

    Its really too bad last year that sleep walking through the reg-season had to happen. But it did and the team learned from it.

    This year its highly unlikely to win 3 7-game series in a row projected ( Indy, Miami, SAN) without homecourt in all 3. If the Pistons are to repeat then we have to have homecourt over at least Miami.

    Thats the biggest difference. The realization of how important home court is. Last year it was "We are built for the playoffs" hence the losses to the basement dwelling teams.

    What Flip has brought is offense to a defensive team. Pistons always had the talent. If you look at our starters there is no way they should be condidered a team that cannot score. We have guys that can score.

    I hope it keeps up. I hope the defense stays the same as this new offense is added.

    Starters just need to get off their butts are give it 100% each game. Flip will help the bench. Arroyo, Delfino and Darko can play a lot more relaxed and should do a lot better.
  15. LA Sam

    LA Sam Second Round Draft Pick

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    I almost started a thread on this topic. Here's my thoughts.

    Without getting into a Flip vs. LB mode, which I consider unproductive, there is a difference that bears mentioning. Larry Brown believes in “playing the right way” all of the time, and I don’t find fault with that, but there are multiple “right ways” in the universe of basketball.

    In Larry’s system, this means limiting the offense in search of the best available shot. A possible problem with this theory is that the best shot is in the eye of the beholder, but if LB doesn’t agree, it’s a bad shot. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it does lead to offensive confusion, and somewhat limits your ability to recover from large deficits.

    However, that’s not the biggest problem with that system(relatively speaking, after all it produced an NBA Championship), it’s that humans are amazingly adaptable. If you play oppressive defense for 4 quarters, teams tend to adapt to the pressure, and at some point, very good teams(Indy, Miami) learn to play within the pressure, requiring you to crank it up higher. This leads me to Flip’s difference.

    In Flip’s system, the focus is on playing aggressive offense, taking the first open shot that a competent shooter gets, and playing the good defense. For 90% of the teams in the NBA, this formula will be killer in the regular season, because that same human trait of adaptivness works directly against teams.

    As seen in the Phoenix game, the Suns were thriving on the standard defensive pressure, but when crunch time hit, the abrupt change in defensive pressure was impossible to adapt to, and the Suns collapsed. When discussing these two systems, it’s important to recognize that there is no right or wrong, only what works best for the personnel, and right now, Flip’s system seems to be a perfect(6-0) match.

    The bottom line is that humans adapt, so to keep them out of any comfort zone and provide a definite shock to their system, I think Flip’s system provides the biggest contrast. And it’s this contrast/change of pace, that makes this team so tough to beat down the stretch. The really scary thing is that neither the offense or the defense is at it’s midseason peak.
  16. basketbills

    basketbills All-Star Forum Donor

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    As a sidenote to Sam's post here is a breakdown form hoopsanalyst of how teams have done after LB has left...
    http://hoopsanalyst.com/0506qt4.htm

    A.B., After Brown: The early post-Larry Brown Era has been pretty good in Detroit. The Pistons don't really look like they've missed a beat. What should we have expected? Well, we know Brown is a great coach who improves teams wherever he goes but do these teams generally keep these gains after Brown's departure? Let's take a look and see what the Pistons can learn from this (we'll exclude Brown's ABA teams from this as the league was too volatile to attribute changes in record on any one factor):


    (A) Denver Nuggets (left in mid-1978-79): After a nice run in Denver, Brown left town in the middle of the 1978-79 season with a 28-25 record. Donnie Walsh replaced him and actually rallied the team to a 19-10 finish and a playoff birth. The team, however, floundered in the high 30-win area the next two years. But this seemed to be more a result of substance abuse issues catching up with David Thompson rather than having anthing to do with Brown's departure. Incidentally, three years later (1981-82) the Nuggets found Alex English and the team had a nice run in the 1980s that roughly equaled what they did with Brown in the NBA.

    (B) New Jersey Nets (left in late 1982-83): Brown was fired right before the 1982-83 playoffs but the Nets still ended up with a solid 49-33 (then a franchise record). The team struggled in the playoffs but then bounced back in to win 45 games in 1983-84 and upset the Sixers in the playoffs. The Nets remained a decent team for the next two years but slowly were declining. The win totals went from 49 to 45 to 42 to 39 before collapsing to 24 wins in 1986-87. Losing Brown didn't help the Nets but the bigger reason for the collapse seemed to be Micheal Ray Richardson's struggles with drug abuse (he was ultimately banned from the NBA in 1985-86).

    (C) San Antonio Spurs (left in mid-1991-92): Brown was fired after a dispute with owner Peter Holt in mid-1991-92. At that time the Spurs were struggling at 21-17. They rallied afterwards with Bob Bass to finish 26-18 (47-35 overall). After Brown left, the Spurs steadily improved over the next four years and Brown's departure seemed to have no effect.

    (D) Los Angeles Clippers (left after 1992-93): The Clippers are one team that felt Brown's departure the most. They went from a competitive team to also-rans very quickly. In fact, that Clipps haven't one a playoff game since 1993, which was Browns final series with the team. While Brown's loss clearly had an effect, we should also note that the Clipps were probably heading to problems in 1993-94 as most of the key players were entering free agency and had been embittered by Donald Sterling's refusal to pay market value (see Manning, Danny) or were just plain pissed off (see Harper, Ron). So, 1993-94 would probably have been painful even with Brown.

    (E) Indiana Pacers (left after 1996-97): As great a job as Brown did in Indiana, his final year with the Pacers was not pretty. The team slumped to 39-43 and missed the playoffs in that final year. Brown was replaced with Larry Bird and the team responded with a then-franchise record 58 wins in 1997-98 (and nearly upset the Bulls in the playoffs). With the core of the team intact, Bird had a nice three year run which was arguably more successful than Brown's own run in Indiana.
    (F) Philadelphia 76ers (left after 2002-03): In Brown's final year in Philly, the team went 48-34 and went to the second round of the playoffs. When Brown left, the Sixers fell apart and went 33-49 in 2003-04. Part of this was due to the loss of Brown and his defensive schemes but there were other problems in 2003-04 such as Allen Iverson missing 34 games with injury and having a new coaching staff that was in over its head. Still, Philly does seem like the place where Brown's departure was felt most.
  17. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    interesting posts guys.
    I wonder if it becomes a case of larry being too easily scouted and countered.
  18. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    Max and LA Sam

    Max, several laker's fans came to me and told me that they did not understand why the Pistons did not have a better offense. If you look at the players, I totally agree--we should not be offensively challenged. Sam, I think it does boil down to perception of sorts. What exactly is a good shot? A shot under duress near the basket may not be as good as a clean look further away. It depends....What I hope is true is that we will continue to score more even when other teams bring tough D. I think we can score more than in the past and this may open up some great possibilities for this team

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