Where is Joe?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by himat, Jul 16, 2006.

  1. easybuckets

    easybuckets First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe Is Certainly Not Gone. But Remember He Is Not A "talk Just To Hear Himself Type". Silent And Deadly, Thats Our Joe. Have Faith... He Has Been Great So Far. All The Pf Members Who Think They Have Better Ideas, Join The Real World. Face The Facts.. Salary Cap...free Agents' Desires... Agents.... Insecure Players Who Need Their Buts Kissed Etc. This Is The Real World. Not A Utopia Where The Gm Can Have Anything His Heart Desires.!!! Give Joe His Props...............................!!!!!!
  2. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    In the real world, the shift key on your keyboard isn't used so frequently.

    Otherwise, You Make Some Good Points.
  3. Terry T

    Terry T First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe built this team with an ability to spot underrated talent. In the championship year we had B. Wallace, T. Prince and M. Okur all preforming well above the level of their contracts. Trouble is, when those contracts end everyone wants to get paid. Joe kept the right one in T. Prince and now we have to hope that guys like Murray and Delfino are diamonds in the rough that wiil outpreform their contracts this year.

    As far as Ben Wallace goes, we had him while he outpreformed his contract, now Chicago gets to make up for that by overpaying him. It sucks for me as a Piston fan but it was probably the right move for Joe to make. I am looking forward to Joe's next press conference to hear his comments on all this.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    The only issue I have is that due to our cap situation, we aren't going to have money to make significant changes for some time.

    Assembling an underpaid roster like that was almost unprecedented. At some point, extraordinary luck has to give way to conventional roster management.

    Constantly being a miser can come back to bite you in the ass.
  5. lapiston

    lapiston Team Captain

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    We got the championship run cheap. Now we won't pay up. If we look at it individually, what Joe is doing makes sense. But not necessarily looking at the whole picture. Our run may have been cut short two years. That is a lot in the NBA. You have to look at the owner in all this, too. He made a lot of money and now won't pony some of it up.

    Now we are counting on guys to step up. That doesn't always happen in the NBA. Certainly, it is not a given. The same thing with our rookies who have only looked so-so in the two games that I watched. That Samb (spelling) guy has a lot of potential but not now. His court movement is dare I say: Ben-like. But he has a shot.

    If Joe and Davidson's goal is to put forth a competitive team, we will be that. They will sell tickets. But if the goal is a championship, we just took a left turn. I really don't see a plan to get better. Everything is based on wishful thinking. And for the Detroit Pistons, that is less than acceptable. We are forgetting who we are. The Pistons are one of the few teams that reconstituted in the last 20 years to go back and get a championship. A good record and the second round are not anything for the Pistons.
  6. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Well said. :nod:
  7. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Makes you wonder why anyone would give up talent for Mo Evans I thought he was disgusting(AHB). But the Zen Master wants him!
    Conflict here.
  8. Buckeyes#1

    Buckeyes#1 First Round Draft Pick

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    Dumars has had this reputation as a shiester that GM's no longer wanted to talk trade with him anymore, because whoever did, always got burnt. So now Dumars is trying to look like a total moron so he can pull a fast one soon. Dumars, you clever dog you. Just kidding.

    Seriously, for what Dumars has done over the last five years since he has been on the job, its been remarkable. Yes, some of it has been luck but much of it has been skill too. Now many of us are giving Dumars a bad grade when the semester hasn't even begun. Although Dumars doesn't deserve a blind eye in regards to our judgement, I do feel he has earned the right to receive patience from us. Dumars took over a job that no all stars wanted to play for and he turned them into the best team in the league (overall for the past three years total). I still wouldn't trade Dumars for any other GM. He was overdue to step on a few land mines. Dumars isn't as great has he appeared when many of us were deifying him, but he isn't as bad as he currently appears either. He deserves our patience and respect. He's earned that much for sure. He still has my confidence, not that my confidence means anything.
  9. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Very very good post (especially for a Buckeye). :thumb:
  10. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Yup. And I think we're just starting to feel the first couple of teeth in what could be a very long bite.
  11. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Well said. I think Joe D falls somewhere between a deity and a dudity. But, sports are a "what have you done for me lately?" industry and we as fans are very fickle.

    No, I didn't/don't expect Joe to be perfect, but the illusion sure was nice while it lasted.

    Here's hoping the magician can pull another rabbit out of his hat soon.
  12. Terry T

    Terry T First Round Draft Pick

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    Yeah, that's kind of scary, but aren't most teams usually capped out. You almost have to have a burn it down year to be a big player on the FA market.
    True, but the young player outprforming his contract was a huge factor in the playoffs; Boris Diaw, Josh Howard even D. Wade.

    This sting of losing Big Ben may be shortening your perspective. When he signed Rip a lot of people thought they were overpaying. Sheed got market value. He did get Tay to buy in and accept less than open market value. Ben is the only one that got away.

    I am a huge Ben Wallace fan. But you have to be able to dominate a game to be worth $15 mil. Four years ago Ben dominated a lot of games, next year probably not so much. Looking at a list of the top 20 salaries in the league and I see that 5 of them are franchise killing contracts (Chris Webber, Allen Huston, Brian Grant, Grant Hill, Jalen Rose). You have to be very careful when you commit yourself to that kind of money.
  13. max

    max All-Star

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    What I have been wondering about since this Ben Wallace fiascal. Now this is just food for thought.

    Lets go back to the summer of 2004 when Dumars gave Sheed his contract and signed Dyess. At the time Darko was still a part of the future and re-signing Ben Wallace to a Sheed like deal in 2 more years was a given.

    If Darko had worked out and Ben wanted to stay then we would right now be extending Ben for 12mil/yr and Darko for around 10min/yr. Thats 22mil - 6(mohamed) which would have given us an extra 16 mil in salaries for 06/07. Not to mention extending Billups in 07 for an extra 6 mil or so in cap space.

    So if everything had worked out we would have a projected extra 22 mil in salaries for 07/08 putting us way over the lux tax threashold.

    My point is what was Dumars planning back then? Why did he draft Darko when we would not have had enough money to keep both Darko and Ben around?

    I am not trying to turn this into a Darko thread but Dumars back in 04 was putting our team salary on a collision course with Davisons salary restrictions. Does not seem like very good planning to me, neither does signing Dyess at the start of Darko's 2nd season. For a #2 pick one would have expected that Darko should have been ready to take on extra mins but with that he sentenced his #2 pick to no more than 5-10 MPG for the next few years.

    And if Dumars knew all these things then why wait so long to trade Darko? Or why not trade the pick for future 1st rounders when we could have better used them?
  14. Terry T

    Terry T First Round Draft Pick

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    I can answer one question. He drafted Darko Because we had Zelico Rebreca, Sheed was still in Portland.

    As to why Darko wasn't traded sooner (especially with all the talk of other teams inquiring about him), good question.
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    @TerryT

    Most teams are capped out, but teams with a window at a title add salary, and teams that don't have a shot tend to make salary cutting moves to reposition for another run.

    Re: Diaw, Wade and Howard, we blew it with Delfino and Darko. Plain and simple, we made bad decisions to draft Darko and how we handled him, and leaving Delfino overseas for one year probably cost much needed development time.

    There is no such thing as a "franchise killing contract". Not in my opinion at least. Some folks look at the New York Knicks and see a salary nightmare. I see a lot of untapped trade potential.

    My point is, since most contenders are capped out, we are all on a level playing field in free agency (have only exceptions to use on new talent). But the more talent and salary you have on the books, even overpaid talent, gives a GM more options when he looks to make deals. Signing Ben to $15 million is probably too much money. But not signing Ben and staying capped out is only a win for the owner (staying out of the tax). When Ben played last year, do you think people said, "gee, he's lost some game but still a bargain at $6 million a year"?

    Heck no. We worry about salary when the team sucks because it hinders improvement. When they win 64 games, we'd like to see the owner ante up to keep it rolling because fiscal success is not the victory we as fans seek. We want wins and titles. You need talent to get that.

    Now if losing Ben brought us under the cap and made a lot of salary room to pursue a younger elite free agent, it makes all the sense in the world. But to lose him and gain no edge back in talent? That's just plain being cheap (or as I hope to explain later, greedy).
  16. jammertime

    jammertime Starter 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Max, I've got to think that Joe thought Darko would replace one of Sheed, Ben or Dice before losing them to FA. Once Darko was ready to take over, one of them would be traded. Then we'd have a young, franchise type Big man PLUS whatever we get back in a trade for one of the other three. No cap issues, we get younger and we either add depth or picks (probably a combination of both) in the process.

    Once Joe realized that wasn't going to happen, he dumped Darko to make room to resign Ben. But we all know how well that turned out...

    In hindsight its easy to see the mistakes, and I'm not saying that drafting Darko was the right move. But at the time, our 1,2 and 3 spots were all filled with rising stars making cap friendly money. Our age was in our big men. I'm sure it seemed like a no brainer at the time.

    You win some and you lose some. But Joe hasn't recovered very well lately, IMO. We need him to get back on the winning track and string a couple of W's together. I don't care how he does it - FA, trade or the draft - he just needs to do it.
  17. max

    max All-Star

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    Jammer - Yes but you cannot tell if a guy is ready for starter mins unless you play him. But you cannot play him with 3 proven vets ahead of him when you are trying to win a title. Its the chicken and the egg ( or whatever that saying is )

    Terry T. - It makes sense in 03 but not when Dumars reshaped the frontcourt in 04.

    Again, its not a Darko post - just pointing out how much Dumars blew the pick. No planning on how and when Darko would take over and how to keep him if he worked out. Dyess was signed with somekind of trade clause so that does not seem to be a smart move if he was to be used as a stop gap until the #2 pick worked out. Perhaps Darko was groomed as Bens replacement in 06, if so Dumars did a terrible job minding his developement and keeping him interested. No top 3 pick is going to want to sit on the bench for 3 years. I don't care who that is. Darko may be a bust but Dumars set him up to fail from day 1. This falls on the GM.

    Ros - Interesting how Chic frontloaded Bens contract. This makes him much easier to trade in subsequent years. Why couldn't we have done that? Yes it does appear that Davison will not pay lux tax. I am just beginning to finally believe that. But I am just a fan. This is something Dumars must have known and should have planned better for.
  18. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    Joe thought (as most of us did at the time) that Darko would take two or three years to develop. By that time (i.e. last year) he thought we would have a bigger version of a young Kevin McHale, with championship experience, that could anchor our front line beyond the effective "lives" of our big 3. If/when $$ became a problem, he would cross that bridge when he got to it. This is the kind of "problem" GM's love to have.

    The problem was Darko's lack of effort and attitude. No doubt the hype machine, his youth, and $$ played a role as well. While as a Piston he went from a hopeful McHale to a poor man's Chuck Nevitt. He had to go. :ohwell:

    I agree with you about the value received though, although that future 1st rounder has value; especially in the class of 07. That class is being touted as one of the best ever. That's why it always amazes me when summa the junior GMs on this board offer to include that pick in various trade scenarios. As if it is a meaningless "throw-in." IMV, that pick represents all that we expected Darko to be, only at a time when our big 3...er 2 are nearing the end of their primes.

    Dice was signed to replace Memo. Remember that we not only lost Memo that year, but also Big Nasty AND Mike James. If Dice hadn't of "taken" Darko's minutes, Memo and Nasty surely would have. If Darko was ready to contribute in a significant way to a playoff run, Joe might not have signed Dyess. If anything, Joe is a realist.

    Keep in mind that Darko was NOT dumped "to make room for Ben." That was just the company line. The same line used to explain away dumping Big Nasty. One must read between the lines here. "Making room for Ben" was the "politically correct, ego stroking" rationale. LB didn't want Nasty and never used him properly. He prefers "athletic" SFs and Nasty was too undersized to be effective at the 4 (in LB's offense). Joe accomodated him. Darko was a dud in a Piston's uni. Had he played like a young McHale (for example), he'd still be here.

    Somebody remind me again. Who did we get for Nasty?
  19. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    Yes you can! Maybe some fans cannot, but coaches and GM's are paid a king's ransome to make that determination in training camp and in practice. :spy:

    Contrary to popular (by some) belief, you can't suck in practice or training camp, or summer league, etc. and be ready to contribute on a championship contender. :playball:
  20. cwolfson

    cwolfson First Round Draft Pick

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    Having the 2nd pick of the top 4 and ending up with Darko, when the other teams got LeBron, Anthony and D-Wade? An historic miscalculation.

    Without getting back into how/why such a c*ck up occurred, to the extent that it had anything to do with drafting "for need", or because of the premium placed on "big men" (almost all the worst high picks have been big men, with the possible exception of OTHER Pistons picks like Special K and Sugar Bear), this is yet another lesson, if one was needed, demonstrating that the age old principle should always be followed -

    DRAFT THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE, REGARDLESS OF POSITION OR NEED.

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