Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by webz, Sep 25, 2006.
To the Mad Thunder Blaster...NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZZZZZZRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Bball Jay is correct. Ben was a liability late in games and Hack-a-Ben was working in the 2006 playoffs.
Slippy!!! What's good bro???
...it only makes sense if the "latter mentality" actually works...
Contrary to [strike]popular[/strike]...your belief we did not almost lose to Cleveland and get bounce by MIA because of FT shooting. We got humiliated because we had an offense gameplan that refused to attack the basket, a reliance on the jumpshot and a "we'll get those points we just gave up back on the next possession" attitude. None of which should or could be attributed to the "big red 3, in red, blue, and white tonight"
Face it...Ben was bummin after LB left...Flip & Ben didn't mesh...and Ben still got DPOY. Offensive liability that he was, I still like Ben for his hustle and makin things happen. IMO...1 to 3 of the lost Ben boards are just plain GONE and will be shown in the team stats at the end of this season. Anyone care to speculate about the team steals and blocks differential that will most likely occur?
Where will Ben's 11.3 rebounds go?
Hey, we don't even know where some of of his free throws went. I say we find those first.
Stadium maintenance crews around the NBA say an occassional lost ball turns up now and then, but most are still unaccounted for.
Last years Hack a Ben was a very challenging situation. Ben shot 20% from the line in the Miami series. If he could have gotten that to around 50% then it would not have been as damaging.
On a side note McDyess scored 0 points and basically contributed nothing in game 7.
Miami shot 56%, 58%, 54% and 56% in their 4 victories in the series. In 2005, Detroit in its four victories held Miami to 46%, 44%, 41%, 46% FGP.
Ben went 0/2, 2/10, 0/2 and 3/4. So you can reasonably cite 1 game in which Ben's FTs cost us the game. Otherwise, you're ignoring the obvious conclusion.
no we lost because we couldn't score because ben is an offensive liablity. cleveland and miami simply didn't check him. we played 4 on 5 for 2 series and in the end it didn't work out. there is no posting up if ben's man is just going to double team you. there were countless times when tay's postup game was stopped by ben's man double teaming. rips curls weren't effective because ben's man was playing soft. rip when he went to the basket got stuffed quite a few time by guess who. ben's man.
i think we did lose to miami because of free throw shooting. with ben in the game in the 4th miami took away what we were good at. we are good at clutch games and execution down the stretch. none of that is possible with miami getting instant turnovers by fouling ben. i don't know why people say ben should have been in there for defense. he wasn't stopping anybody in the miami series. wade or shaq. the way wade was shooting and the way shaq was dominant i'm sorry we didn't need more emotional rebounds we needed some points.
lb's squad was a jumpshooting team too. high percentage jumpshots isn't a bad game plan. when the jumpers stopped falling we couldn't go inside because miami was playing zone.
no other coach was as committed to it as riley. most other coaches would do it as a novelty late in games when they were down. riley was fouling ben right from the start. no dunks or layups for ben. his confidence was already rocked that's why he shot such a low percentage. ben should have stepped up and hit 1 out of 2 free throws to make riley quit the tactic.
it isn't flip that made a mistake by waiting too late to take ben out. ben couldn't defend shaq and he wasn't helping on wade. there is no real reason for ben to be on the court in the miami series.
Ben wasn't an offensive liability in 2004 and 2005.
Why the difference in results? This was an even deeper team than the 2005 squad. Should have been able to wipe the floor with the Cavs and take the Heat to the 4th Q of Game 7 in the ECF.
I know why. You know why. We all know why. (Sounds like a nursery rhyme).
Less touches made Ben an offensive liability. If you don't pass him the ball, no one checks him. Contrary to some of the postings I've read, Ben was never left unguarded when he had the ball. Someone always put themselves between him and the basket.
Larry knew this. Larry also knew that Ben was the closest thing the Pistons had to a paint player after Memo and Corliss left. He draws fouls, which even if unconverted, forces the opposing coach to make substitutions out of necessity, not strategy.
When you dictate the tempo and flow of the game, you give yourself a chance to win every time. Flip doesn't understand tempo. Doesn't get grind it out. One posession at a time. His idea of flow is, "swish, swish, swish". There is no plan for when the shots don't fall, except take more shots...
we didn't go up against mike brown and lebron. we didn't go up against a healthy wade and pat riley. those years either.
five feet away from ben is not checking him. often the defender is between the basket but 5 feet away and ben is just an extra wasted pass. more time off the shot clock. ben is already an offensive liability it doesn't matter how many times he touches the ball.
darko was still here, tayshaun was still here, sheed was still here and chauncey was still here. i would want any of them in the paint before ben gets touches down there. drawing fouls only works if the other team isn't deep and miami had lots of bodies to throw at ben.
flip was coaching with his hands tied. he couldn't upset the malcontent. don't underestimate the value of easy shots that flip creates for us. it just got harder to do once teams figured out to just play zone off of ben. how can you grind it out when ben is getting dunked on on one end of the court then getting fouled and missing free throws on the other end?? we couldn't have the game be close against miami because with ben in the game there is no grinding it out against riley.
Darko was demoted to the bench by Flip because JMax was outplaying him in practice. Tayshaun is a reluctant scorer. Sheed is a reluctant post player, and Chauncey Billups is the worst paint finisher at PG in the NBA.
Flip creates easy shots off his flex offense because teams do not have time during the season to scout and adjust for particular playbooks. In the playoffs, a system that has basically 2 options on each pass, and the plays are scripted regaqrding movement, that's easy to counter.
The best system does not win. The talent that plays hardest, together, usually advances the furthest. Gimmick offenses will remain gimmick offenses.
The reason why teams zone effectively against the Pistons is that we do not force the ball into isos or to the paint. We don't have slashers in our starting 5, and we don't have players whose primary scoring method is to post up.
We run a perimeter based passing offense that says, take the first open look if it is in your range (good luck finding a player who will admit a shot is not in their range), not make the extra pass to get your teammate involved and generate a better shot by pressuring the defense.
The zone is exactly how to stop the Pistons. Let Rip, Sheed and Chauncey keep jacking up jumpers, and at one point, they will start missing. And because the gameplan is to keep shooting, bad shots starts to follow missed shots.
Ben is a grind it out player. He bodies up, doesn't draw a lot of fouls playing very physically, leads the team in blocks, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds and steals. He's the ULTIMATE grind it out player. He's who you need to have on the court to pressure the ball up court, clean the glass, and make a big stop.
darko wasn't playing hard cause flip was giving him more of the same. no chance for game time minutes. that was during the season but during preseason and at the start of the season darko was our best post option. well before ben at least. tay wasn't reluctant in the playoffs, sheed is reluctant but if the coach calls the play he does it. just ask tony parker about whether chauncey can post up. chauncey may not drive to the hole and finish but just backing a small guard down he finishes well.
none of the reasons you pointed out would make me turn to ben for post ups. jmax posts up well put him in the game.
nobody figured us out. we still got good shots in the playoffs. what other teams figured out is that if you don't check ben it can throw a monkey wrench into the whole play. watch how much smoother our offense is with teams having to check nazr.
exactly. i agree that those 3 are just going to keep shooting. that's when it's up to the coach to throw somebody else into the game which flip failed to do. i'll never complain about good shots taken within the offense. flip should have put fino in who will drive to the hole but hey i think he's learned his lesson this year.
yup. except against miami when he wasn't stopping anybody. he wasn't grabbing a higher amount of boards than mcdyess would have. he wasn't blocking lots of shots. he wasn't stopping wade when he went to the hole. he was giving miami instant turnovers at the cost of a foul to antoine walker. he was a liability in that series. his defensive presence wasn't worth his sorry offensive ability. flip chose to keep ben happy instead of putting the team on the court with the best chance to win. ben doesn't match up well against miami.
What general universe are you from??? Did it contain the same Interplanetary Pistons the rest of us watched???
Flip took great pleasure and measures to upset the "malcontent" as you label him in an obviously passive aggressive fashion. He refused to focus on any form of defensive effort, repeatedly pulled him out of games at the worst time, and sat him while the team got eliminated.
Flip got to do whatever he wanted, including losing with no responsiblity on his own shoulders. Gotta love that publicly stated job security...
Could say the same thing about Ben losing with no responsibility on his shoulders. Its easy to blame the coach for everything.
Ben has been torched constantly since the Orlando game. Since then, it's been nothing but, "malcontent, blah blah, FT shooting, blah blah, losing a step, blah blah, money grab, blah blah.... on this board and courtesy of your local team mouth pieces in the Det. News.
If anyone's caught a ton of flak this summer it's been Ben. Nodoby outside of myself and a handful of other posters has bothered to lay the blame squarely on the one varible that changed from a year prior: Flip Damn Saunders.
Ben's due a big batch of blame. He turned into a %%%%%. But Flip only made it worse. He really has no clue how to handle players.
Low - Sorry I am not buying that its all Flips fault. Flip did not tell Ben to only shoot 27% in FT's or to only block 4 shots in the entire Miami series or to make sure his rebounds stayed in single digits.
Ben Wallace is a professional and should have been able to play through any disagreements he was having with the coach at the time. He did not seem to play as hard ever since the Orlando incident - you don't quit on your team..
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