Will the Pistons' rebounding improve without Ben?

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by TaS, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    That would make the Bulls scary! Well, not to us but to their own fans.
     
  2. himat

    himat Bench Warmer

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    2 reasons. Like I said first that the team only started to really assume that Ben would do everything on defense last season. It didn't help that Flip never put an emphasis on this laziness. Larry Brown would always do that.
     
  3. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    I agree... there seemed to be more of a casual attitude last year... Larry kept them on edge. As he used to say "you shouldn't have to coach effort".
    This could be the primary reason for bringing in TP & Cowens... they're not afraid to light a fire under them... a hardass has to also have support by managment and key players... hopefully this is a better blend of leadership than soft & softer.
    If Flip does get on the guys then we shouldn't have to hear the "poor abused player" response.... let's start right now with Sheed:dizzy2:
     
  4. max

    max All-Star

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    Having a decent bench should light a fire under the starters. No one wants to get shown up by his sub. Last year when Evans was crashing the offensive glass it inspired the starters to do the same.

    This year I am hoping that Chauncey is not going to settle for 3's when he sees Murry driving in. Same for Prince/Delfno and hopefully Maxiel can set the bar in paint points for the other guys. Mohammed getting inside should also help Sheed and Dyess not settle for so many long jumpers.

    We will see...
     
  5. hack

    hack First Round Draft Pick

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    Good point! Never thought of it that way, but it certainly makes sense.
     
  6. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Excellent point. Everyone talks about Billups playing better under Flip, but the true turning point for him with assists and turnovers was when Arroyo arrived and pushed him at his position.
     
  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    So now you are subscribing to Lee356.5's theory on CB improvement? :)
     
  8. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I'd like joint authorship credit.

    Lee uses his powers of observation. I crunched the #s.
     
  9. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    This was my main point. The defensive letdown was brought on by Flip's mismanagement.
     
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I disagree Brother Mo.

    The players share at least 50% of the blame, probably more.

    The laziness is a self discipline and motivation issue. The players are not children, they are veterans and expected to perform their job professionally regardless of who the coach is.
     
  11. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    I disagree roscoe. They are professionals and veterans but my friend said that that's why you hire a coach in the first place. Cuz he's going to get out of you more than you could on your own. He's going to see things standing out there ...away from the action...that you couldn't see. And he's going to help you adjust. Adjust you position. Adjust your intensity. You professionalism and experience is to be able to translate the coaches adjustments into on-court action...not to bypass the need for a coach.
     
  12. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Larry Brown said prior to the Rasheed Wallace trade, "I didn't think I would have to coach effort".

    I'm talking about laziness. Lax perimeter defense. Slow rotations. Missing the bus.

    These guys have been there, done that. If they need someone to hold their feet to the fire, when Joe D. said last season that each of them came with a point to prove each day, then they are merely good, not great.

    And if takes a Larry Brown or Pat Riley to make them great, then that may be Flip's shortcoming. But it surely does not discharge the players from any responsibility.

    Just my $0.22.
     
  13. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I don't think its a conscious thing. I think it was more of a virus that grew as the year progressed last year. The emphasis on defense was seriously downgraded and when the starters needed to draw upon their once defensive championship prowess, their practice during the regular season failed them. The greatest teams lose focus. The Pistons managed to shoot themselves to a record setting regular season. When the playoffs started they relied on what they did the entire season...the jump shot. If failed them and they got bounced. I still subscribe to the fact that the best honors class left unattended will not reach their full potential and develop bad habits. Expecting the players to remember the ends and outs of a defensive system (which according to Ben they didn't practice) to me sounds unreasonable during crunch time. The team simply wasn't prepared. Coach's fault for that one. Part of being a good coach is knowing when to give the fellas a swift kick in the back side. Flip waited till Ben left to pull out his steel toe boot.
     
  14. easybuckets

    easybuckets First Round Draft Pick

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    My opinion is that Ben's actions in defying the coach, made it much more difficult for Flip to crack down the the rest of the team! This year I think the team will be more willing to accepting coaching from Flip and his new assistants.
     
  15. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    If the coach has a rep for zone, and is actually considered one of the better zone coaches in the NBA, then his players basically refuse to play zone, what exactly is he supposed to do?

    I don't think Flip is an elite coach. I've made this very clear. But I tire of reading about how EVERYTHING is his fault. It wasn't all his fault. The players screwed up plenty. Ben Wallace made mistakes and got his game handed to him in a brown paper bag by most of the better paint players in the league.

    He wanted to play man, but when it was time to be the man, he got beat. I mean, Ben's vertical leaping was a lot worse than year's previous. Was that Flip's fault? Should he have bought Ben a trampoline? Or the Free Throws. Maybe Flip didn't help Ben by getting him touches, but does that totally absolve Ben of hitting the rim?

    Sheed got ate up by a lot of the better PFs in the league.

    I just don't get how someone like Rip, who has a lot of self-discipline, a wicked offseason workout regimen, etc. can set goals and improve his game, continue to play with a high motor, and everyone else gets to blame the coach.
     
  16. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Good points bro.

    Quick answer. Force them to play the zone anyway and deal with the consequences of your decision. This is what happens when you go conservative. You eventually take the blame for being passive. Last I checked, Flip has the same position and powers he had last year. He's only deciding to use it this year.

    The players did get handled last year defensively, but ask yourself this. Why the sudden change? Why didn't we see this dropoff earlier? Two previous coaches were able to get this effort out of these players. Longest tenured starting 5 remember? Supposedly...this team had a chip on its shoulders and something to prove after losing the championship the previous year. The biggest mistake in judgement that was made by Dumars and most of the us fans was that this team was disciplined enough to stay focused without an elite coach. I've yet to see a team in the NBA's history that fits that bill. Has a non-elite coach won the championship in the past twenty years? Besides, we don't know that the other players didn't prepare diligently during the offseason....all we know is that whatever they did was not enough alone to become champions.
     
  17. max

    max All-Star

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    Go ask Chuck Daly how much his bench helped inspire his starters in the old days. Both in practice and on the court. I have heard it mentioned numerous times.
     
  18. Dumars4Ever

    Dumars4Ever Bench Warmer

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    Interesting question. Of course, winning a championship can go a long way toward putting someone into "elite coach" status. I don't think either Popovich or Rudy T were considered elites until they won, though they certainly gained that status by doing so.

    But it does seem like teams in other sports can occasionally win in spite of clearly bad coaching (albeit not very often). The last Cowboys Super Bowl victory came with the moronic Barry Switzer in charge--the switch from Jimmy Johnson to him would almost be like dumping Pat Riley in favor of Jerry Tarkanian! And the Diamondbacks' World Series win over the Yankees was very nearly de-railed by the stunningly inept handling of their pitching staff by the sad-sack Bob Brenly. Although winning ships in football and baseball usually comes with good or great coaching: guys like Bill Belichick and Jim Leyland are a lot more common on title-winning teams than fools like Switzer and Brenly. While Flip Saunders can't really be considered an elite coach at this point, he's far better than either of those idiots were.
     
  19. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Stop it! Stop it! I refuse to read any more of this nonsense!!!!!!!

    Ojectivity is NOT allowed here. It never has and never will be allowed by many of the readers.

    There is absolutely NO room for grey here. EVERYTHING must be black OR white! Can't you see that? The world is made up of absolutes.

    Who are you...Charlie Brown???? Stop being so wishy washy.

    It MUST be either ALL Flip's fault or ALL the players fault.

    [sign]Sarcasm
    [/sign]
     
  20. max

    max All-Star

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    I agree. Everything sucks so don't even bother watching.

    Seriously though. And getting back to the main topic. Checking some stats. In 3 games Ben Wallace shot 2-12 from the line and only has .67 BPG. Still early but so far is he continuing from where he left off against Miami?
     

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