Win Now club/ aka Stuckey/Flip

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by 16 Mile, Oct 6, 2007.

  1. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    This is a question to the win now club. With Darko and Delfino, the general agreement was they needed to earn their pt. However, with Stuckey, everyone seems to expect that he will be given minutes. Everyone but Flip Sr.

    And listening to Flip lately, it looks like Flip Jr. is beating out Stuckey for PT. I've always believed you played youth with superior potential over vets. Let them learn to play through their mistakes. I'm wondering if the WNC is coming to my side, or if they feel Jr. should play ahead of Stuckey because he beat him out in pre-season.

    Sometimes minutes have to be given, even if it hurts the team early. And Stuckey needs to be given minutes. If Sr. won't do it, he needs to be gone.
  2. ggazoo69

    ggazoo69 Starter Forum Donor

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    What's the opposite of the Win Now Club? The Not Win Now Club? The Win Later Club?
  3. Slippy

    Slippy All-Star Administrator Forum Donor

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    The Hawks?
  4. linwood

    linwood All-Star

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    I'm all for winning now. If Ronald Murray can do that, then I go with him.
  5. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    There is my club, the win in the playoffs when it counts club, regular season wins are fools gold club. Anyone who wants the Pistons to win Championships can join.
  6. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    I think Stuckey should get the minutes. We saw what's happened with our two draft picks that didn't get the minutes and defined roles. Stuckey's not going to want to sit on the bench.
  7. ggazoo69

    ggazoo69 Starter Forum Donor

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    I'd be glad to join.
  8. LA Dre

    LA Dre All-Star 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    As they use to say when the Raiders hung around LA, "Just Win Baby" forget about the now, when or later.

    But alas, Sheed and CB ain't getting any younger, so in the end when it comes down to who is playing good or better, it's who is playing best is who should get the nod and if that is Flip Jr. then so be it and go to hot hand. I do understand the platform for the WNC as the window is shrinking for the guys who hang out at the Palace.
  9. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Delfino was given plenty of opportunity before he was sent packing.

    Darko was also given some opportunity but he was a bust in his attitude and actions on the court.

    JMax was given an opportunity and has earned the minutes.

    The cream always rises to the top.

    All this talk about who will get minutes from Flip and the media is just noise. Once the actual games start, the guys that play the best defense will get the minutes.

    The question around AJ seems to be his defensive rebounding. Last year in the 8 games that he played he averaged 7.1 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes. This compares to

    Dyess 7.7
    Sheed 7.5
    Nazr 7.2

    JMax a paltry 4.2

    AJ is by far our best all around rebounder both on offense and defense. People get a negative distorted view of his defensive rebounding because his offensive rebounding is so good.

    KG by comparison averaged 10.6 defensive rebounds per minutes and Big Ben Big averaged only 7.7 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes which was his lowest since 1997 -98 his second year in the league. At his peak Big Ben averaged 11.6 per 40 minutes.

    Shaq's career average is only 8.5 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes and last year he averaged 7.1, the same as AJ.

    I expect that AJ will up his defensive rebounds per 40 minutes to over 8.5 this year, which will be the best on the team and he will lead the Pistons in rebounds per 40 minutes.

    Basketball-Reference.com - Basketball Statistics, Analysis, and History

    :hoops:
  10. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    delfino was not given an oppurtunity. yes he got increased minutes but in a role that does not suit his game. delfino showed with argentina that if you put the ball in his hands good things will happen. delfino would play good and then get basically no minutes the next couple of games. i don't call that an opportunity. tayshaun shooting 22% and getting lit up by lebron in the cleveland series shows that minutes are not given to the player who is playing the best. even ronald dupree should have played in front of tay in that series. was he even on the playoff roster?? i mean seriously you don't truly believe that minutes are handed out fairly on the pistons.

    that's simply not true. darko was leading the league in blocks during the preseason. the pistons went on a win streak during the regular season and his minutes never recovered. an oppurtunity is not having 1 bad game and you are on the bench for the rest of the year. darko outplayed dice for much of that season when darko was traded. yet dice's minutes increased and darko's decreased. darko had that attitude because of the way he was never allowed to play.

    this was only made possible because joe d made sure that the young players get an oppurtunity to play. jmax earned more minutes but he never got what he truly deserved. there were times when he was outplaying dice and webber but his minutes never increased and the vets stayed steady.
    bs. tay was only able to replace curry out of desperation in the playoffs.

    delfino will be starting for toronto by the end of the year.
    darko will be starting for memphis.
    yet. we couldn't find a spot in the rotation for these guys which were our weakest rotation spots. c and sf. the win now method hasn't won in years. if we had developed either darko or delfino we would have at least 3 championships. it's time for a change in philosophy.
  11. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    The Pistons don't play European style basketball, which Argentina does.

    Delfino failed to learn how to convert his game into Piston style basketball. He was given ample opportunity to do that. He failed miserably.

    :hoops:
  12. mikhail1973

    mikhail1973 All-Star Administrator 1x Fantasy Champion

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    He couldn't hit open shots. That's all I need to say.
  13. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    There are basically two clubs. The "Win Now" club and the "Win Later" club. The "Win Now" club generally don't care who plays nor who get's the most minutes as long as we win. The "Win Now" club believes those who EARN pt get to play. Those who don't won't. Fairly simple. Plus those who don't improve their game (especially in their first two-three seasons) get kicked to the curb.

    The "Win Later" club (aka the "Win My Way" club) is mainly comprised of folk who want to see the young pups play regardless of the outcome. Also embedded in this club are a fair amount of groupies and bum lovers; not to mention closet anti-Piston fans who want to see our record and playoff sucess fall below the records of teams we have traded our non-performers to (i.e. Toronto and now Memphis).

    To address 16-Mile's original question, I PREFER to see Stuckey grab the third guard minutes. But if he can't beat out FlipJr then so be it. I'd tell the young man to go to work. Unlike some of the young-pup lovers, I don't believe you properly develop a player just by GIVING him some PT. In the immortal words of the Temptations....you got to earn it!
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    no. it's not the style of play. it's the fact that flip doesn't know how to use players to their strengths. delfino could have fit into the pistons style of play as a 2 guard or point guard. delfino was great in argentina with the ball in his hands. he is not a spot up shooter.
  15. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    lindsey hunter could??
    tayshaun could hit open shots??

    there was a stretch of games when delfino was hitting at least one 3 per game. shooting like 45% during that stretch yet his minutes only declined. it's crazy how people expect guys with inconsistent roles and inconsistent minutes to be consistent in their production.
  16. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    that method would only work if it was possible to beat out the vets for minutes. mcdyess did not beat out darko. lindsey did not beat out arroyo. nazr / webber did not beat out jmax for minutes. so that must mean you do believe in giving vets minutes. lindsey did not beat out flip murray for minutes. there is no earning it on the pistons. that's why we are developing young pups for other teams and we can't get over the hump. memo, darko and delfino will be starting next year. cleveland beat us because they put a young pup on the floor while we stuck to lindsey and tay.

    your win now method isn't working.
  17. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    It's hard to earn something, if you're not given a chance to prove yourself. I like to call my way "Win in June Club" Teams like San Antonio are willing to give up a few early wins to develop their youth, I don't understand why we can't do the same.

    Jr. may be better than Stuckey now. But what if Stuckey is given some early minutes? Flip is Flip, he is not going to get any better, but Stuckey has potential, and most likely he'd be better than Jr. in June, and that's what counts.
  18. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    You're kidding here right? :pound:

    So what was Arroyo's excuse in Orlando last year? Lindsey's still here ain't he?

    Nazr/Webber don't play the same position as J-Max.

    Why mention Memo here? He wasn't booted, he left on his own choice. Darko will be starting on a "Win Later" club next year. I highly doubt that Delfino will start for Toronto as they have playoff aspirations. Besides...has his knee stopped hurting yet?

    Oh really? And your "Win Later" method is? (see Orlando, Memphis, et-al) 5 EC championships in a row tells me it IS working. Especially since we are still in the hunt. What does that tell you?
  19. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    A player is given a chance when he signs a contract. You begin to earn pt via off-season workouts, in camp and in practice, as every baller knows. That gets you a spot on the floor in exhibition games. If a player stays ready, performs when called upon, and stays within the team philosophy, he gets more minutes.

    Just because a certain player does not capitalize on this OPPORTUNITY, does not mean that the Piston's philosophy has changed.

    First of all SA has a fella named TIM DUNCAN. He can cover a lot of ills with his size and talent. Secondly, what youth did SA "develop?" I'm not talking about guys like Ginobli and Parker because they CLEARLY took advantage of the opportunities presented to them. SA has mostly had a veteran bench. Pops knows what it takes to stay in the hunt. So does Joe.
  20. 16 Mile

    16 Mile Bench Warmer

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    Duncan led the team with 34 mpg. San Antonio, imo, had less talent on the bench than we had, yet they played their entire bench letting players earn roles, and keeping the starters fresh. If Flip had coached SA, Duncan, Parker, and Ginobilli all would have averaged 36+ mpg, and they probably would have crashed and burned in the playoffs.

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