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Win Now club/ aka Stuckey/Flip

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by 16 Mile, Oct 6, 2007.

  1. TheeTFD

    TheeTFD All-Star

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    Re: Win Now club vs Develope Talent Club

    Q. Mad Hat, "The "Win Later" club (aka the "Win My Way" club) is mainly comprised of folk who want to see the young pups play regardless of the outcome. Also embedded in this club are a fair amount of groupies and bum lovers; not to mention closet anti-Piston fans who want to see our record and playoff sucess fall below the records of teams we have traded our non-performers to (i.e. Toronto and now Memphis)."
    Ha.
    But to be clearer. The Win Later Club likes high draft picks to get P/T.
    This means to get serious regular minutes to asertain true skills in reguards to team needs. This club is willing to sacrifice maybe a playoff slot but for sure be in the playoffs, if that's the kind of team we have. If it's a total rebuild we still would like to see player development at the risk of a few games. We don't like vets hogging all the minutes because there're vets. and expect minutes due to their monetary status etc.
    P.S. the only anti-piston fans "here" get IDed and run quick.:cold:
    correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  2. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    Flip Jr. would seem to have the advantage over Stuckey in experience. When you decide to play the player who is most ready to contribute now, you are basically robbing the young player of his chance to gain experience. Its an uneven playing feild. In competitive situations its always going to be the safer bet to go with the guy who has been through it before. Playing it safe hasn't gotten us anywhere the past couple of years- it has simply made our vets content and our young talent wanting out.

    The self proclaimed "win now club" should really be called "the win as much as possible in the regular season but fall short in the playoffs due to lack of total team development club".

    It doesn't have to be such a black and white argument. You can win and give the young guys the minutes they need and deserve. I don't care how much you disliked Darko or Delfino personally. They deserved more than the garbage minutes they got here. They are European style players and we pretty much ignored their strengths by forcing them in roles the team needed. If you need a Jason Maxiell, draft Jason Maxiell don't draft a 7-foot serbian teenager known for his jump shot and try and mold him into Jason Maxiell. Likewise don't draft in Argentinian with good handles and above average athletacism and force him to be a spot up jump shooter. Just sign fing Jarvis Hayes.
     
  3. max

    max All-Star

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    I guess they call it player development for a reason.

    For the sake of argument lets say Murry is better than Stucky at this time. I am not sold on that but lets just say thats the case. With a full season of PT is that still going to be true going into the post-season?

    Truth is we don't have the enough talent in the vets to get it done in the playoffs anymore. These young guys Stucky, Amir, Maxiel are the only hope we have right now. Have to play those guys so they can get better if we are to have any shot at winning the East and getting back into the Finals.
     
  4. FreshPrince22

    FreshPrince22 Bench Warmer

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    Putting the ball in a players hands every once in a while has nothing to do with a "European Style". A team that knows how to properly develop young players would know that you have to try to play a player to their strengths. Delfino was almost exactly as advertised when we drafted him. A good defender/rebounder, with a very streaky jumpshot, and solid ball-handling/playmaking ability for a SG/SF. Flip insisted he was a spot-up shooter, and never took advantage of the things he was actually good at.
     
  5. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    nope. while darko was leading the league in blocks in the preseason and altering many more. mcdyess couldn't hit the side of the barn. in fact every year mcdyess starts the year off building houses brick by brick yet his position and minutes are never questioned.

    arroyo isn't a good fit for a slow down half court offensive team. lindsey is still here and should have retired 4 or 5 years ago. lindsey hasn't outplayed anybody to get his minutes.


    webber is not a center. nazr may not play the same position as jmax but it's jmax's minutes that he took. sheed and mcdyess both slide over to play center.

    delfino will start for toronto. write it down. toronto is using him to his strengths.

    darko would start for us. it's not because of the team he's on. darko would start on half the teams in the nba. memo was still treated unfairly as a young player.


    the win now method is why we have 5 ecf appearances instead of nba championships. we are only in the hunt when we should have a dynasty. that's the difference between you and me. i don't believe that winning now and winning later are mutually exclusive. you can do both.
     
  6. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    I just saw that scrimmage. I can tell you for absolute certain, Murray is nowhere near the player Stuckey is. You can't tell much from a scrimmage like that, but it was painfully obvious Murray can't stay in front of anyone, and still does not have clue one about when to shoot vs. pass.
     
  7. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    This thread topic feels like deja vu all over again...
     
  8. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    If the "Win Later" club had it's way we would never get to the playoffs to begin with.

    I never disliked Darko or Delfino personally. The problem was more with the free pass wavers of the DHOF club. That wasn't Darko or Delfino's individual fault. In any event, those two have gone on to other clubs now. And since the cream ALWAYS rises to the top; we will see how they adapt to a more "Darko/Delfino" friendly system shortly.

    If the young guys deserve more pt they will get it. Tell Darko and Delfino to watch closely now. I gotta feeling Stuckey is gonna show em the proper way to "earn it."
     
  9. Lee356

    Lee356 All-Star

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    Mad, this is a major stretch, to say that if we took the time to develop our youth, we would not make the playoffs. I suggest you go take a look at the record we ended up with the past two years in the regular season, and take a notice at the huge margin we had as far as making it into the playoffs.

    The best coach we had of late was Larry Brown. In Larry's first season here, we did not start out with a stellar record. Larry Brown knew regular season wins were foolish to set as a goal. Instead, he transformed the team from a scripted one to one that could ad-lib, using the principles of how to play basketball right. It was an amazing transformation, and one part of it was to play Prince a ton to get him fully ready for the playoffs. Remember, it was really Prince's first full year of playing, as he was seldom in the rotation the year before.

    How effective was this approach? Before we even got Sheed, the Pistons went on a 13-0 run midseason, with Memo as our starting center.

    I strongly suggest you join the win when it counts club-in the playoffs. Still plenty of room.
     
  10. DeetroitDynasty-e

    DeetroitDynasty-e First Round Draft Pick

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    I think that we tend to under-estimate the need to slowly get these rooks/younger guys integrated into our team on the court. I think there really should be phases to their development as a unit. I think Stuckey, Amir, and J-Max deserve immediate consideration for major bench minutes. That being said, i think we should hold off on Afflalo until Stuckey gets confident with being the primary ball handler on the court. Flip can share time with Stuckey on the court, relieving him of running the offense when things get overwhelming. We can't just "Go Young" and put a bunch of in-experienced, un-comfortable, un-familiar players together and say "Develop!" I expect to see Nazr played in spot situations where a large dominant/semi-strong center is used by the opposing team. Similarly, i can see Afflalo utilized as a defensive player behind Rip and Flip. Mejia and Samb will be D-Leaguers, and i think Super Dup will be bought out.
    I can see Afflalo's development getting pushed forward if Stuckey gets good at being the primary ball handler early in the season. Also, I can see Mejia being called back to the team if things with Flip/Stuckey backcourts arent working and Tayshaun gets overplayed. Mejia could potentially work as a backcourt partner to Stuckey. One of the things i was unhappy about was the fact that Jarvis Hayes doesnt have the best of handles. If there's anything the Cavs taught me its that we as a team we are vulnerable when the principle ball-handlers/handler is attacked. Top developmental priority should be development of young handles, especially Stuckey.
     
  11. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    Bingo! This is exactly what the "Win Later" club can't seem to grasp. Rookies don't "rot" on the bench. If they can't TAKE a spot, they wait till next year. That fact is as old as the NBA itself.
     
  12. Mad Hatter

    Mad Hatter First Round Draft Pick

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    That's the same club that predicted we would not make it to the finals in our championship year, because YKW was nailed to the bench and Delfino was (rightfully) inactivated. The same club that predicted that we would miss the playoffs simply cause mean ole LB made certain players earn pt? Also the same club that predicted a finals appearance by the lowly Magic last year.

    No thanks. How'd the "win when it counts - in the playoffs" club do on that one?
     
  13. DaviaG-Rap

    DaviaG-Rap First Round Draft Pick

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    Or they demand to be traded.
     
  14. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    AMEN BROTHA!
     
  15. DeetroitDynasty-e

    DeetroitDynasty-e First Round Draft Pick

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    Rookies demand to be traded?... Did Darko demand out? I think Delfino had his three year evaluation from Joe, and neither was happy with the result, Delfino asked to be traded and Joe planned on it. I think the Darko deal had several variables: Larry Brown having no faith in the youth (minus Tayshaun), Darko being very young and very hyped, and the fact that our starters were peaking when he needed developing. Honestly, if you were Darko would you request a D-League stint to get some PT?
     
  16. ggazoo69

    ggazoo69 All-Star Forum Donor

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    Can I join the "Win in Preseason" Club?
     
  17. Delfino Delivers

    Delfino Delivers Bench Warmer

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    Or Delfino. OOOOPPS. Did I say that out loud? :stirthepot:
     
  18. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Delfino stunk

    He couldn't finish at the rim
    He couldn't make his foul shots except for last year
    He couldn't defend
    He couldn't shoot a jumper

    A European style player who had to get traded to a Toronto to stay in the league. Half of Toronto's players come from a European basketball background.

    Delfino. Good riddens
    :hoops:
     
  19. dba

    dba All-Star Moderator 1x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Not really.

    After his first year most teams figured out that he could do that reverse jam thing and Delfino never managed to adjust and yes, didn't finish well.

    His shot came and went, but was mostly broke last year. Still, he shot 46% from two and Tay shot 48% - both of them were misused as primarily three point shooters.

    But, he was one of the better on ball defenders and help defenders on the team. And he was willing to stick his nose in and fight for boards. He was the sixth best rebounder on the team, but ranked eighth in minutes.

    Prince had six more steals last year than Delfino, despite playing over twice as many minutes.

    Yeah, he's gone, and maybe for the better, but let's not warp the past quite so much.
     
  20. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    fair enough.

    :hoops:
     

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