Workin' Out the Kinks

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by mercury, Oct 23, 2005.

  1. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Five days without a game... this time could be more valuable than the actual games.
    • It will be an excellent opportunity to expand their understanding of Flips playbook.
    • Work out some weaknesses (dribble pen & shot selection etc.)
    • Implement the zone D
    • Make some final roster decisions (Dupree, Acker, Hunter)
    • Work on blending the subs into the regular rotation with the vets
    Anything you want to see cleaned up before the final two Preseason games?
  2. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    Let's just not get anybody hurt

    You know they play hard against each other.

    I am not disagreeing with you; I think your list is good. I am wondering if you would rather see the subs play separately with the starters or come in as a unit? Just wondering, that's all?

    It looks good to me to bring Dyce or Darko or anyone else for that matter, in early to play a few minutes with the regulars and then bring the rest of the second unit in. I really like it when Flip has done that.

    If it does not begin to irritate the starters by losing them a few minutes, I really like the second unit system. It is great the way they are cheering for the bench. I want it to keep up.
  3. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    It's a good question Lazy... We don't see a lot of platoon systems in the association. I still believe you play your best 5 as much as you can as long as they're effective.
    We have to be realistic about young players tendency to make more mistakes and being less comfortable in big situations.
    Preseason is much less intense than regular season games on the road.
    However the 2nd unit so far has been excellent... they have earned the right to get a real look this season.
    IMO, Flip should be consistent in his rotations... maximizing complimentary players.... not too many shoot first guys... not too many defering type guys...
    It's time to cut out all of the various mix/match lineups and let them become comfortable in their roles.

    I'm really excited about what Sheed can do this year... he should dominate the East PF's (baring J.O.)... he could be just as effective as Vlade as a trigger man in the high post.

    All of the double and tripple screening will free up more open shots.
    BUT... I want to see them working on discipline... that should not change from the LB era.... If Flip is half as smart as he sounds... he will keep the good stuff from Larry... and gradually implement his game plan.
    Larry also believe in a lot of off the ball movement... just not forced shots.
    Contested or off balanced shots should result in the guy getting less PT... we can not afford giving up possesions just because we have a more free flowing offense... and that's my concern about the young players.... Shot selection is the reason ugly offenses like INDY and Bobby Knight teams still win a lot of games.

    Short answer... give the bench some rope and see what they do with it ... but don't accept undisciplined ball.
  4. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    For sure. At one point, player development ends and the focus needs to be on winning. I'm not saying to ignore players, but if Ben can go at a high level for 35 MPG, I don't think we have many better players at his position who should be eating away at that.

    Or, you don't have the best starting 5 and then not play them a lot. I thought that was part of how they earned that monicker last year. Overplayed perhaps, but you need to put in a lot of minutes in the NBA to get recognized for anything.

    Yes, yes and yes. That hot start to the season is not going to materialize from wishful thinking. Need to come firing out of the gate and the last pre-season game for all intensive purposes should reflect the regular season tempo, focus and intensity.

    Flip needs to stay on these guys. The only intensity I have seen/heard about was against Miami and much of that had to do with the fact these two squads do not like each other. We can't afford that "we'll be there at the end mentality" and that in my mind is Flip's toughest challenge. Not the offense, not the zones, not finding time for DMC. Challenging the starters to prove themselves night in and night out.

    I think that Flip has verbally made a commitment to that. No matter how talented a player is, they still have to show restraint and control. They have to respect the details and the system. With so many young fellas on the bench, it is important to make sure that the Pistons culture of selflessness and hard work is a constant.

    Just my 80 cents. I really thought your initial areas were pretty comprehensive Merc. Good job.
  5. max

    max All-Star

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    Getting one thing back

    Decent assistant coaches.

    I liked this piece from the new assistant coach Ron Harper thats cut to the core of the starting 5's problem last season.

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/pistons/0510/24/C04-358404.htm

    They were guilty of flipping the energy switch on and off throughout the first half of last season, as well, which ultimately cost them home-court advantage in the conference finals and NBA Finals.
    This, Harper said, is not what great teams do.
    "They have to realize that this is our time right now," Harper said. "Don't hold off. When you step on the floor every day, bring you're 'A' game and play hard. If we can do that, we have a chance to be a great team."
  6. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    2nd unit

    i think the second unit should play as a unit. they have a definite chemistry together. only certain players can fit in with the starting 5. mcdyess, darko, delfino, can play with the starting 5 the rest of the time i say play 5 bench guys together. some people will blow it off as preseason but out bench has been playing very well together. they often not only hold the lead but extend it. people talk about pressure situations but it's been our bench guys closing out games in the preseason not the starters. that's valuable experience right there.

    there aren't too many teams in the league that thier starting 5 could beat our second unit. our 2nd unit could be a legit starting lineup in the nba no reason why they can't log a good amount of minutes. there is a reason to lower the amount of minutes the best starting 5 in the league plays. it's called extending thier careers. it's also about development. some games the starters will play 30 minutes but others they should play 20.
  7. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    What ??????? That's a very bold statement. I don't think our bench could beat many if ANY starting fives in the league in a best of 3 series. Maybe in a few years, but not now.
  8. kpaav

    kpaav Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    Dath Tater

    Its a bold statement but I see where hes going. Here are a few situations.

    1. The Pistons are serioulsy outplaying the Hawks, and though its early in the game, we already have a 15 pt lead. Therefore, Flip could minimize starter minutes by implementing the bench more. Not necesarily as a full group at the same time, but at least individuals intermitently. At the end of the game, there could be 6/7 players at around 25-28 minutes. Of course, if the lead gets eaten into you can go back to all starters, but this wont happen many times.

    2. The second case is if there is a player just not playing good--i.e Rip is in a 2-15 shooting half. Flip could sub in Delfino for an extended stint that day, thus limiting Rips minutes.

    All this adds up to is a more rested starting 5, and almost more importantly a much better--battle tested bench unit. This last statement I think is of upmost importance. During the Championship Run, the bench unit was much more battle tested, thus when the playoffs came, they could contribute in a positive way. LAst year, I wouldn't say that the bench was much worse talent whys, but they were so inexperienced in game situations (think Arroyo) that when they were put in the high intensity games they -- for lack of a better word -- choked. So I belive that limiting starter minutes, even a lot, has many benefits and can be accomplished WITHOUT diminshing frommthe quality of play or final record.
  9. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    I'm not saying that we shouldn't rest the starters more. I was responding to Jays statement and saying that if you start our bench against another teams regular starters and play them in a 3 game series our bench will lose most of those games.

    The examples you used were very different. You were talking about (1)ONE bench player replacing a struggling starter and (2) the bench going in and holding a large lead the starters already secured. Quite different from what Jay suggested.
  10. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    I can't think of 5 starting units our bench is better than.

    I come up with

    Toronto, only because of the Darko mismatch
    Atlanta, don't ask me why, I think they will be a lot better this year.
    New Orleans, pathetic squad
    Orlando, if their Magic Mojo is off but if Hill and Franchise are on, forget it
    Portand, too many kids, we would stand a good chance.

    Sorry but 75% of the teams in the NBA would mop the floor with out starters. That's just fact. No matter how good we hope they can be, they aren't THAT great.

    Now if you rate bench on bench, we've probably got the POTENTIAL for one if the top 3 5 man units.
  11. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    our bench not beating ANY of the starting fives in the league is a very bold statement also. our bench is that good often beating OUR own starting 5 in practice.

    mcdyess is a starting quality power forward in this league. arroyo was a starter in this league. delfino is underated and mo evans has been slept on by the league darko is also underated but will no longer fly under the radar. these guys are unproven as a unit but i don't think my statement is too bold. they would lose to some teams definitely but a lot of the teams in the league they will give a run for thier money.
  12. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    can't say I agree with you there buddy.

    If you said...

    would lose to most teams definitely but a lot of the teams in the league they will give a run for thier money.

    I would be more inclined to agree with you.

    I can only see them maybe beating Toronto, New Orleans and Charlotte in a best of 3 series. Just not enough experience on that squad outside of Dice. Now, a year from now you might have a more compelling arguement. I think you might be underestimating the talent of the rest of the league. Sure would be interesting to see though. Perhaps in the last couple of games of the regular season if we have home court advantage sewed up.
  13. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Yes on Mcdyess. While Darko is certainly coming along he isn't quite there yet...sounds like he will be really good though. Saying Delfino is "underated" or Evans has been "slept on" doesn't hold much water. Other teams have guys like that too.

    Also, my original quote was along the lines of " they couldn't beat many, if any of the starting fives". I allowed that it is conceivable they might beat a couple of teams...but those teams are crapola.

    I agree we have a very talented bench. However, I would not want to see them start as a unit against starters from most other teams. I think it is essentially like saying that we have the ten best players in the league and I think that is unrealistic to believe. We already say we have the best starting 5. Are we saying that if all of our starters leave tomorrow we will still challenge for a championship? That if our almost two time NBA champ starters all go to a new team we can knock them out even if they wind up on the same team?

    Flip isn't Larry. If he thinks Darko and company are better right now than Ben and company based on some practices then we are going to see a very surprising opening day lineup... along with a Pistons loss to all those other guys like Iverson who would be benched behind our bench.
  14. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    my original post never said anything about a best of 3 series. i also never said our second unit was better than our starters. i just said they beat them sometimes in practice. so from that point alone i think it's possible for them to beat another starting 5 in the nba.

    my delfino,darko and evans comments are based on potential and speculation. but this whole scenario is based on speculation because most likely we will never see the situation come up where our 2nd unit starts against a full starting 5 of another nba team.

    most elite teams would beat our second unit. but 7 8 seed playoff teams and down we will definitely give a run for thier money. no i'm not saying we will contend if all 5 starters left. i'm saying that your bench is pretty good when it can put 5 people on the court that can hang with about half of the nba's starting 5's.

    but yes. i say we have the best 10 in the league. if you go with a platoon system. but most teams don't put in whole 5's at a time they leave a few starters in. but i will say that other teams in the league can't put 5 bench guys on the court that can mess with ours.
  15. lazyberbs

    lazyberbs First Round Draft Pick

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    the second unit

    I believe the reason there are not many second units playing in the NBA is that there are very few teams who have a bench as good as ours. I don't believe our bench could beat very many of the starting teams in the league (some but not a lot) but when they start putting just a few of their bench in, our second unit could more than hold their own with those mixed teams. Say any of those teams put in two subs, our second unit could and would mop up the floor with them, either forcing them to put their starters back in or suffering, pointwise.

    By 20 games into the season, if we play the second unit, they will be a great force to face. That second unit could also be configured to play against the opponent by, say for instance, put JMax in instead of Evans if we are playing against Artest.

    Use the speed and/or power and/or other assets that we need at the time to face certain opponents. By having four of the 'regular second unit players' in at the same time, the chemistry would be prreserved.
  16. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Look, I don't really care one way or the other because I think we have the best or second best starting 5, but if anyone think our bench is better than San Antonio's, they are drinking kool-aid for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    Oberto-Horry-Nesterovic-Barry-NVE-Finley-Udrih

    That is one heck of a bench and by all accounts in the preseason, they are playing like it.
  17. rdang

    rdang First Round Draft Pick

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    Agreed 100%. Stay off the wacky stuff people.
  18. Darth Tater

    Darth Tater All-Star Forum Donor 6x Fantasy Champion

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    Can you imagine what the NBA championship will be like this year if we have a rematch of last year? Wow!!!!!! What a battle from top to bottom!!!!!
  19. mercury

    mercury Bench Warmer

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    Hey guys,

    If you have NBATV, they'll be showing the Pistons (and Spurs) camp this Friday @ 7:00PM EST
  20. roscoe36

    roscoe36 All-Star Administrator

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    Thanks for the tip. Know your enemy as I like to say.

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