Zeke's place in History

Discussion in 'Pistons and NBA' started by MotownPride, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    I have a friend of mine who is a HUGE Utah Jazz fan. We just had a spirited discussion on John Stockton's place in history versus Zeke's. Of course we got in a heated debate about Isiah's snub from Dream Team I and the offensive outburst Johnny Boy got as a result of the snub.

    Anyway, I was curious to know what the folks in my Pistons Forum think about Isiah Thomas's place in history. Where do you rate him amongst the greatest point guards of all-time. Is he in your top 5? Here's my top 5:

    1)Magic - The Championsips, The Smile, The versatilty, The Passes, will there ever be anyone better?
    2)Oscar Robertson - Lord of the Triple Double, complete all-around player
    3)Zeke - He beat perhaps 2 of the toughest teams in the history of Sports (Celtics and Lakers). Excellent ball handler, sprited leader, clutch shooter, and offensive magician.
    4)Stockton - How can you argue with the numbers? Career leader in steals, blocks, and one of the most dependable/inury free players in the history of the NBA
    5)J-Kidd - I think at the end of his career we will consider him one of the top 5 point guards to ever play. I really wanted to pick Pistol Pete Marovich because of the innovation he brought to the league, but I think this pick makes alot more sense. When heatlhy, Kidd can take over the game in so many different ways. His involvement on the floor makes any team instantly competitive.

    I'm sure there are many other picks that others may include like: Jerry West, Walt Fraizer, Dennis Johnson, etc... but these are the guys I like. What is everyone else's thoughts?
     
  2. BillLaimbeer

    BillLaimbeer All-Star 4x Fantasy Champion Forum Donor

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    Charley Rosen

    Charley Rosen recently made a list of top point guards. I think he is trying to stir up controversy with some of his choices:

    http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/3734262

    1. Big "O"
    2. Magic
    3. Jerry West
    4. Jon Stockton
    5. Walt Frazier
    6. Dennis Johnson
    7. Lenny Wilkens
    8. Ralph Beard (played 2 seasons before banishment from NBA for point-rigging)

    Zeke made honorable mention. Some people simply hate the Pistons. Even if you do, Zeke still has to be in the top 5.

    If you click on the link above, you can also see other rankings (top center, power forward, 6th man, coach, team, overrated, etc.).

    Only 3 more posts until I get my *^&(*^(^(*& avatar...
     
  3. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    hmmm..

    Dennis Johnson over Zeke. WOW! Can you say no love?
     
  4. Superstarov

    Superstarov First Round Draft Pick

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    I really don't see Jason Kidd as one of the top five PG ever to play the game. Aside from the fact that if I saw him in my local watering hole I wouldn't bother to acknowledge his existence, I think that he is mostly hype. We have fallen prey to the NBA marketing machine.

    A PG is the leader of the team. The floor general. I haven't seen much from Kidd that says that he has led his teams anywhere. I'm not positive about this, I tend to follow the Pistons extremely closely, and the rest of the NBA at a glance, but does Kidd have a ring? If not, I don't think he compare to some of the other PG's who don't have them... ie Stockton, Payton... he's a flashy, quick thinking player who shines in the transition game, but in the half court, he's mortal.

    And if I see him blow a kiss before a free throw again, I'll throw up all over myself.
     
  5. Zoso

    Zoso First Round Draft Pick

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    Hey Laim. Good to see you make it over to this neck of the woods. :)

    I completely agree with your comment on Zeke. Any list of the best PG's in NBA history that doesn't include Zeke in the top five, let alone the top eight, just can't be taken seriously. But, people have been hatin' on Thomas for so long now, that it's just to be expected. It really is a shame.
     
  6. legend71

    legend71 Second Round Draft Pick

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    J Kidd was a good point guard in his day, but that day is done. He is older now and never could shoot much. That has hurt his game and made him into basically a transition set up guy. I think was an excellent player but worthy of a top 10 spot really. His wife is very hot though.

    Regarding Zeke against the greats:

    How many of those other guys took games over and willed their squads to titles? Magic and Oscar sure, but Stockton?? Was West a point guard? Walt Frazier?? Everyone hated his Piston team because they were the bad guys and played physical. Zeke created his own problems in the media and got labeled. No big deal. Who cares what Charlie Rosen says anyway?

    Last time I checked, the Pistons of Zeke's era beat the Bulls a few times and Stockton's squad never could. Isiaha was money in the Finals and Stockton was not. Besides, he busted Stockton's ass after that Dream Team BS too. DJ couldn't cover Zeke either. What a joke.

    He is a terrible GM though.
     
  7. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Jason Kidd

    LMAO.

    I think the hype surrounded around Kidd's ability is warranted. He is an excellent defender when healthy and an effective rebounding guard. I really did not get an opportunity to study Kidd's game until he joined the Nets. It was undeniable the impact he had on that team. Hey, two straight NBA finals appearances is nothing to sneeze at, although they ultimately ended up being fodder for the Lakers. Career Stat wise he is no slouch either. His numbers are comparable with all the greats so far. His Assists per game career average is tied with Zeke for #4 all-time and he is number 9 on the list for total assists with only 786 games played. He might not be the ideal citzen, but this dude is a hall of famer to be in my book.
     
  8. MotownPride

    MotownPride Starter 2x Fantasy Champion

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    Whoops!

    Quick correction: I said Stockton was the career leader in BLOCKS! LOL! I obviously meant assists.

    Another point on J-Kidd. Its really easy to write a player off after injury. His numbers were slowly coming back to form near the close of the regular season. I wouldn't be suprised to see a rejuvination of J-Kidd this season especially since he has Carter and Jefferson on the wings this year. I still don't get why New Jersey soured on Rahim espescially since Sacramento jumped all over him once New Jersey backed away from the deal. New Jersey missed a golden opportunity of Shareef is in good enouch condition to play. A lineup featuring Carter, Jefferson and Rahim would have been nassssssssty!!!
     
  9. legend71

    legend71 Second Round Draft Pick

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    They would have been nasty on offense but probably would have played no D either. No boards and no D = 39 win season.
     
  10. bball jay

    bball jay Bench Warmer Forum Donor

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    zeke is in the top 5

    without a doubt. people are making excuses for kidds injuries why he should be in the top 5. zeke played in the finals with his ankle hanging off. stockton or kidd shouldn't be above zeke because they both haven't won anything. kidd also can't hit a jumper to save his life. he also gets absolutely shut down by the pistons so i can't see putting him in the top 5. zeke's teams beat jordan, bird, mchale, magic, etc.
     
  11. Abe Froemen

    Abe Froemen First Round Draft Pick

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    Zeke

    I will agree that West and Magic are better, just watching replays of Magic on espn classic (sorry no nba tv) the man could do anything he wanted on the court. But to put some of the others on that list ahead of him is just plain sad. Stockton if he didnt have Malone he would have only been average. as for the others well im to young. If Isiah needed to score then he could score if he needed to get the ball the the hot hand he could get it through a double team . Isiah was just fearless. I am so glad that nobody can ever wear #11 again cuz they just would not do it justice.
     
  12. BigDaddy

    BigDaddy First Round Draft Pick

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    Top 5 without a doubt.Those were Zeke's teams without a doubt he was the heart and soul and demanded that everyone around him do the same.I'm sorry but Kidd is a hell of a passer/set-up man but he could never hold Zeke's jock strap as far as scoring at will and just the fire he brought especially in the playoffs elevating his team even when having no ankle.

    Stockton well deserving of a top 5-8 nod personally I can't stand him or Malone after the Dream Team snub which was B.S. and Malone delivering the blatant elbow to Zeke's eyebrow.
     
  13. Earthquake

    Earthquake Second Round Draft Pick

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    hay o

    WHo is Zeke? Darko?
     
  14. Zoso

    Zoso First Round Draft Pick

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    Earthquake

    Zeke = Isiah Thomas' nickname.
     
  15. Robert Michael

    Robert Michael First Round Draft Pick

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    Charley Rosen is a Hater!

    ZEKE is top 5 point in history of the game. The problem most people have is that he scored too much and at will, so they say he's not a PURE point guard. Whatever. Watch the games on NBA TV and it is very clear. The man was amazing. In my opinion- BETTER THAN MAGIC. and Magic was amazing. give Zeke a few more inches and we would have a few more titles. DJ???? laughable.
     
  16. DANCUTTY

    DANCUTTY Second Round Draft Pick

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    After Isiah Thomas was enshrined into the Hall of Fame, he was asked
    during a interview about his height, or lack of. To be honest, I can't quote his response, however, the gist of his answer was as follows.

    If I were three or four inches taller and with no disrespect to Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc., nobody could have stopped me.

    Relative to Isiah's place in history, top 5, no brainer.
     
  17. buddahfan

    buddahfan Retired from Forum

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    Two Way Tie

    Michael and Magic with the Big "O" coming in third, Zeke fourth, Bob Cousy fifth, Kidd and Stockton tied for sixth Maravich eighth and "C" Bill ninth. (what can I say, personal prejudice and bias).

    Michael and Magic were clearly above the rest of the field simply because of their numbers and the fact that their teams won so many rings.

    Most people don't think of Michael as a point guard and he was not a "True" point guard in the classical sense of the word, but he did average 5.3 assists a game over his career which was almost double the number of assists per game of his 2 main backcourt mates during his years in Chicago, i.e. Johnny Paxon and B.J. Armstrong. No one can deny that when Michael was on the court he definitely controlled the ball on the offense for the Bulls.

    I loved Zeke's game and in my mind he is #4 right all time right behind the Big "O". What can one say about Cousy? Like Bird (see below) he won (too) many rings (LOL) and could handle the ball as well as any point guard who ever played. Stockton had some excellent assist numbers but he had Malone to pass to his entire career plus he never won a ring so I would have to put him below Cousy.

    Bottom line is that Michael won 6 rings and Magic 5 with each of them averging over 40 points produced per game (points + 2 times their assists). Magic 41.7 and Michael 40.7. Only the Big "O" averaged more over their careers at over 45 points produced per game.

    I believe those three were the only players to have career averages of over 40 points produced per game though Wilt came close with 38.9 per game.

    Zeke averaged 37.8 points per game over his career, Stockton 34 points per game, Cousy and Kidd 33. By the way Maravich averaged 35 points produced per game over his career but he and the Big "O" played at a time when the scoring overall was a lot higher in the league.

    P.S. The best point forward of all time Bird with (too) many rings (LOL) and a career average of 36.9 pppg.
     
  18. Tyskillz

    Tyskillz First Round Draft Pick

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    Nothings changed with Rosen one freckin bit, he's been a refuted VICIOUS Pistons hater for years now! I personally don't think there is any possible way Stockton can ever be rated over Zeke, that's like rating Patrick Ewing over Hakeem Olajuwon.... It's just not right!!! I'm sorry but when it comes down to it you've got to go with the guy who's got the ships/rings folks. No matter what stockton ever did (and he was indeed great) he was NEVER a Champion... Meanwhile Zeke has been a Champion at every level of his career PERIOD!
     
  19. Tyskillz

    Tyskillz First Round Draft Pick

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    unenlightened

    SAY WHAT???

    WHOA?!?!? WOW, you're ignorance/innocence as an alleged Pistons fan is BLARING all over the freckin place!!!!!!!!!! Let me guess pal, you just became a Pistons fan when we drafted young Darko, right..? Irregardless welcome aboard guy, I'm sure if you stick around long enough you'll hopefully get caught up to speed soon enough....
     
  20. LanierFan

    LanierFan Bench Warmer

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    Easy now. Forums are better without pomposity and condescension. Everybody has to start somewhere, and people shouldn't be afraid to ask honest questions.
     

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